it's probably the best thing to happen to LD

Yes Rommil, justice shall be done.. for my ASIs and Pierce meds T_T

It's great - earlier I saw people running around with cutter lines, blitz needles, and other weapons that you'd never see normally. They still get mowed down by better players. People are spamming 3 hit combos because they think they're so strong and they're getting punished for being dumb. Single strikers are dashing into groups of 3-4 people and dying for being dumb.

This means that even if they don't change it back, these are things you can overcome with skill, at least in random play.

RSS and gun double-ricochets are noticeably more powerful now that they can actually happen to people and hit them to similar extents monsters get hurt.

It's kill-fast, die-fast gameplay.

If you like it, enjoy it now, because it's going to be one of those limited-time things :3.

-------

I wasn't aware that we had invincibility frames in the first place, but now that I know we had them, it's painfully obvious now that slow and pretty much unusable Catalyzer line was getting gimped because the detonation shots/early charges were triggering invincibility and keeping the rest of the charges from doing the damage they would have.

Blitz needle was (wow) absolutely gimped with the invincibility frames.

Generally speaking, gunning was gimped, especially if you were a quick shot.

and here I thought it was all lag's fault for hits not registering @_@

The problem I have with it is that the bug makes me play like a noob.

Attack & weave? Pshh. Just combo.

Dodge and shoot? Psh. Just hide behind someone and unload a full AP magazine on an enemy.

I fear when the bug reverses, this fun will have spoiled me too much.

...Can we keep it?

@Pauling

Just as there are a few "ideal" weapons in undead or beast levels, so we need to resign ourselves to the fact that some weapons just aren't suited for pvp.

And how can you tell that? Is it written somewhere?

In PvP you must bring new varieties , or it will become boring and monotonous.

Cutters and Autoguns have major weaknesses that players can exploit.

For example those using blitz charges are most likely a gunner wearing a Seerus mask which is weak to freeze....so use Glacius against them and take your time killing them off.

As for cutters those thing does abysmal damage per hit even when a target is stunlocked and its range is shorter than the Flourish. Just dash around them in circles for victory.

And I agree about others saying that this "bug" will increase the importance of teamwork since its dangerous to go solo and take on 4 people at once. Now you think twice before making any move.

I could go on but I really don't like typing long post..it hurts my eyes and fingers.

Summary: This "bug" must be made a part of LD and therefore must not be removed. Tweak the damage of the weapons if you want to.

Eh- I dont even really play LD, but I might check it out now that invincibility intervals arent awarded for massively different amounts of pips.

That mechanic has been very restrictive to a lot of tools in the gunners kit for a long time.

ImHo it gives ranged a "think about it before you come runnin' up at me" factor to counter the striker/sword mentality of "Were gunna' trade invincibility frames till someone dies, cause its worth getting hit if I can hit you".

I think it would be fun to see some simulated physics for the striker that simulates weight and velocity like skidding and having to slow down and ramp back up to flip a 180.

I have always kinda wondered how that amount of unpunished mobility stands in a game where anything remotely close (mecurtial set) with a movement buff has caused "great concern" over balance issues.

And who cares if Blitz is OP, landing that kind of an attack on someone at close enough range to not spray 65% of the clip *should* be the equivalent of a headshot.

Lastly, I'm just experimental with LD and not trying to lobby for gunner vs sword, or kit vs kit.

Heres to:

Lockdown: June 06 2012, rise of the hybrids!

~Luke

this patch is crappy, change it back and the people who didn't want to get good by training like the rest of us, can go sulk in a corner, my friend just finished making his LD set, he is F2P, and it took him an eternity to get it. so keeping this would result in.

1) people quitting.
2) lots of rage threads.
3) no skill involved in the game.

people are going to quit because LD is the reason they play this game, i mean cmon, people don't play SK because of FSC...

@Doctorspacebar you may be onto something... Give Guardians the invincibility frames and leave the other classes without it :) if tweaked right it would be a nice class balance.

I dont think this was a bug or unintentional, I think its a planned social experiment and that were all being watched....

On an unrelated note about PvE...

This bug made my party waste 20 CE on energy revs in my last SL run (I know! So much CE!). It's really noticeable and annoying in really cramped areas that are swarming with enemies (like arenas).

I like Spacbar and Cyril's observations. More variety in LD is always good, so this hasn't been entirely bad. However, the overpowering emphasis on "hit faster, hit harder" makes fast/multi-hitting swords even more overpowered than they are, so perhaps the right balance is to institute some number of invincibility frames for certain types of weapons, or classes.

That said, because this bug appears to be a removal of invincibility frames altogether, it may not be easy or possible to modify it in the way described. Between more variety and the balance that existed previous, I would have to vote for balance.

On a completely unrelated note, one method to reduce spawncamping would be to mount turrets near one's home base, themed based on the level (howlitzers, polyps or puppies). These could either be invincible (the elusive gold monsters that are no longer in-game) or be respawning like the rocket turret in the sprite room for Vanaduke.

"1. ASI is seriously become overpowered, back then before this bug occurs you have a chance if you dont have uv but now with the invincibility frame gone the faster weapon will hit first and coupled with latency the stronger people will dominate the weak people."
Trinkies help with that- I know they're expensive, but an F2Per can get them- and will probably want them anyway. Also, I've been able to easily crush any Skolver that didn't have a gun with my DR. With Max CTR, and Med Damage, and Shock WEAKNESS from my half-Mad.

2. LD now become a combo spam fest, not 100% combo spam fest because doing that will get you killed, most of the time the best way to abuse this bug is simply hit one or two times using the first swing then when you hit the third just combo them, 90% it will kill people in random except they got max pierce.
I have as much trouble with Flourish-spammers as I did before: very little. Ever tried this wonderful little thing called Radiant Sun Shards? Skolvers like to step on it, all the time. A Sudaruska might have more trouble, but simply add an interrupt-resistance to it, or to certain armors (Plate set comes to mind) and there's no problem- Suda will just knock you into kingdom come.

3. Some weapon are borderline overpowered to insanity: 1. FF/BTB, 2. Hammer, while the guns are not overpowered to insane level they are buffed which is okay but these 2 weapon given the lack of invincibility frame rate are broken to hell since if you get combo-ed by these weapon you probably be dead since your assailant is directly close to you ready to unleash another barrage. Although people reported Blitz Needle to be overpowered they are easy to dodge therefore they arent threathening however those 2 weapon above who had a great mobility to begin with is insane now.
I crush the two above weapons with Bombs, so I may be a little biased. But I really don't find them nearly as bad as you say.

4. No chance of winning when you are dog-piled by enemies; Striker will be the no 1 class, there will be no deviation from this class because currently if the bug is allowed guardian and recon will suffer since they are sitting ducks when being combo-ed by AA ASIed enemies homing in.
It's called teamwork, and Recons find teamwork even easier than Strikers (since, y'know, THEY DON'T GO FLYING OFF AND GETTING THEMSELVES KILLED BEFORE THEIR ALLIES CAN EVEN GIVE ANY SUPPORT FIRE, stop doing that Strikers cause IT'S DRIVING ME NUTS). If I were a Skolver-clone, I'd rather have someone covering the CP with Dark Ret or spamming RSS than just another Skolver Clone.

I said before that Guards could use a buff to their Shield, and if this was added, they might just be so good at teamworkin' that Strikers gripe about them being overpowered. Wouldn't that be great! Striker actually is hurt by the ability to be teamed; they can't solo the far base anymore like they used to.

I agree at what doctorspacebar posted in #26

Teamwork in LD is not a bad thing.

And the days of one Skolver player with 2x penta hearts and toothpicks dominating the whole opposing team is currently gone.

Guardian Shield was already weak before this "bug"....I mean 3 hits from Flourish and kaboom goes my shield.

In addition to strengthening the guardian shield outright, the regeneration time needs to be adjusted. Once broken, striker and recon shields regenerate much faster than guardian shields. It's inconsistent, and in the current environment, only makes guardians that much more of a sitting duck.

Basically, there are two rules that should govern any pvp experience:

1. It is not a competition if players don't get a fair chance to react. The problem with mega fast weapons (like cutters with ASI) is that two strikers can come from the bottom of the screen (blind spot) at a shielded, mobile guardian with 5* armor that resists the weapons used- and the guardian will die in less than a second. Even if the guardian weren't shielded, dying that fast isn't acceptable. The brief period of invincibility upon being hit was a way to prolong the fight and allow for humans to react. A side effect of this was to favor weapons that dealt a lot of damage at once ("hit while you have a chance").

2. No single weapon or trait should trump all others. Right now, ASI is exceptionally useful, and slow classes are unusually penalized.

Edit: Also, please revise maps to discourage spawn camping, which has become more obnoxious than ever with this bug. A few maps only have 1-2 narrow exits with narrow hallways, and a mist bomb or Polaris is enough to stop even recons in their tracks.

@Nick

Great to know that you have acknowledged the positive things this bug have brought up.

While this current setup will be missed, we trust that you will bring it back in an improved form.

@Pauling

1. The same thing flourish was causing before this bug. Just come from the bottom of the screen, first swing+shield cancel against the guardian shield and see it break in a few hits.

OHKO on blitz charge is very difficult since you will have to close in to your target. Also if you get stunned by a Callahan, it will leave you completely immobile after releasing the charged attack, making you vulnerable.

The invincibility frame has created a hindrance on weapons that relies on multi-hits such as cutters, calibur's charged attacks and autoguns. This is just as unfair. Also it created a false sense of competition on most LD players.

2. Flourish with ASI max has trumped over even heavy swords (if you use the first swing) before this bug came in. Hence this reason is somewhat invalid.

Well at least now you cant get blocked by gunners, and now blitz is useful and DVS too.

I don't have much to add to this, but it is worth noting that the Sudaruska charge hits properly now in Lockdown. Before people would only get hit by one of the two parts of the blast, which was a real liability if you hit with only the first part since it has no knockback. It's still difficult to land the attack, but to actually see opposing players reliably get launched out of my screen is very satisfying.

I can use Volcanic Pepperbox, my life is complete.

Also, hammers. That dash is a little OP now with AA. Blitz still just isn't as fun to use, even if it is effective :/

@doctorspacebar

1. "Trinkies help with that- I know they're expensive, but an F2Per can get them- and will probably want them anyway. Also, I've been able to easily crush any Skolver that didn't have a gun with my DR. With Max CTR, and Med Damage, and Shock WEAKNESS from my half-Mad."

I'm sorry i mean asi overall bonus in general, the more you can get the better you will be. You can use 2 asi trinkets and all but you will die faster, a good combination for example for a guardian is 1 med asi sword trinket and med asi swords, with the bonus you get ultra asi on all your swords rather than getting high asi. Getting asi is important in my opinion because its helps you against fully loaded opponent who sports max asi arsenal and prevents you from getting fully creamed by them considering the bug which removes the invincibility rate since they can hit faster than you are, in my observation a 4 bar latency max asi people can hit 4x in 2 second to a hit locked opponent using shield cancel and a good computer to boot.

I'm concerned that newbies who haven't acquired uv and trinkets or a vog will be disheartened by the amount of imbalance in LD since the invicibility frame rate helps them to counter attack max asied opponents cause they need to time the attack and you can exploit that time to launch a counter attack of your own.

2. "I have as much trouble with Flourish-spammers as I did before: very little. Ever tried this wonderful little thing called Radiant Sun Shards? Skolvers like to step on it, all the time. A Sudaruska might have more trouble, but simply add an interrupt-resistance to it, or to certain armors (Plate set comes to mind) and there's no problem- Suda will just knock you into kingdom come."

Most good players usually gun you down with sentenza/polaris/valiance or even better use this method: pin you using polaris then shot sentenza to root you in place or if they have a valiance try to push you to the polaris pellets; I've done that many times to bomber or simply used a guard and flourish spam them and shielding the shards.

While you might argue you have support in teamwork one of the roles of polaris is basically a crowd control weapon, if you see guards formation with striker and bombers, chances are competent opponent will and should switch to polaris and spam to your direction in unison. It doesnt matter if you have shards, the longer the range the shard has between the target and you the easier it is to dodge, most of the time when i do this the formation scattered and then its easy pickings for our teammates to kill your teammate one by one using flourish spam or gf wall spam with polaris backing to prevent the recons from helping them ( In GvG against Jemps a lot of this technique being abused to flush out the bombers and guards from blocking the cap and considering they have 5 striker and 1 bomber guard formation its easy to play polaris gunner and flush people out).

3. "I crush the two above weapons with Bombs, so I may be a little biased. But I really don't find them nearly as bad as you say."

Again you are a bomber but your support probably wouldn't say the same against these weapons.

4. "It's called teamwork, and Recons find teamwork even easier than Strikers (since, y'know, THEY DON'T GO FLYING OFF AND GETTING THEMSELVES KILLED BEFORE THEIR ALLIES CAN EVEN GIVE ANY SUPPORT FIRE, stop doing that Strikers cause IT'S DRIVING ME NUTS). If I were a Skolver-clone, I'd rather have someone covering the CP with Dark Ret or spamming RSS than just another Skolver Clone.

I said before that Guards could use a buff to their Shield, and if this was added, they might just be so good at teamworkin' that Strikers gripe about them being overpowered. Wouldn't that be great! Striker actually is hurt by the ability to be teamed; they can't solo the far base anymore like they used to."

While a newbie group of striker is gonna be beaten by teamwork some competent people utilize flanking, again while you might say that the recon, guards and striker use teamwork there is a time when your big group is a bad news, some randoms can be commanded by people and some people might order them to take another cap point whilst being separated in groups of 2 or 3 that way when you cap 1 point they recap 2 points back.

While if this doesn't work most of the time some competent people using asied or no asi Polaris is gonna try to scatter your formation and when that happens his/her teammates will swarm over and try to kill your team. Say even for example your team win that polaris spammer guy if he is good or competent he will wipe your team off or better yet just run and harass your team if you try to get back to spawn or if you stay and try to heal he will try to delay you with polaris while ordering his teammate to cap.

The reason why gvg often featured 6 striker if they are good is to basically quickly scan and check the battlefield to back caps and obtaining high team mobility that can reinforce the other groups in time of need if they spread to 2 groups. They can also quickly scan from the front line to back line very quickly, dispatch the back capper, heal then go back to the front line. This is the reason why people favor the striker who used the skolver loadout.

Since this is not gvg what i found in randoms are usually almost the same but if gvg is motivated to work together in random basically you need to facilitate them to work in teams via killing off people and commanding them. Think about this say in 1 team you got 1 competent striker who killed 2-3 of your enemy and cap a point, since your team cap the other point all of your teammate will snowball to the point near their base assuming this is a 3 way capture map and it will mostly result in a win because your group will join the other other group who is pushing to the point and most people in random when they got cap blocked they rush to the nearest point which is barricaded by bombs and polaris spam to cover them and some striker that are waiting for their prey while occasionally checking the other point.

The reason why i said striker is very good and be no 1, you must pay attention to the team mobility, any team that has more than 3 guards/recon combined will be slower than say 2 guards/recon, guards and recon main usage in lD is to hold and support the point while the striker capture and kill anything. They are designed like that to basically run swathe the battlefield and cap point while the guards and recon are designed to prolong the cap that you acquired, if your team is losing rolling recon to backcap is usually not a good idea or even supporting the main lain is a bad idea since you the cap usually are being barricaded or you being flanked too fast by the opposing striker team coming out from the upper or bottom lane hence why i said striker will be the no 1 class along with their ability to keep distance from guards and recon using alternating attack that come from afar and short disrupting the momentum of the victim.

I suspect that we'll see very different reactions, with this change most popular among striker afficionados (who often focus on damage and combat). It's important to also look at the effect on fairness (it shouldn't be too easy to kill an entire team and spawn camp their locker room), as well as the capture mechanics that are the real purpose of lockdown.

Obviously, I'm one of those who could care less about any combat that doesn't happen near a control point.

Orbwanter's second suggestion is interesting. Although I personally shy away from any changes that would make the rules overly complicated, simply allowing classes to support each other could work. My only qualm is that allowing guns and swords to have separate invincibility counters might cause more gun users to walk up and fire point blank (so as to physically trap the target). This change shouldn't just be a way to triple damage by mixing weapons.

One way to discourage "my gun is bloody because I don't understand how ranged weapons work" syndrome would be to add more weapon penalties to each class- for example, strikers should be glass cannons forced into close combat, with a gun speed reduction. Guardians are slower support units who shield party mates from the rear. A gun boost would help them counter zippy units that would otherwise escape easily. (and their blitz shots would be a great counter to attackers who get careless) Thus, the mixture of weapons would truly be because of a mixture of support roles.

And infidel... Although being attacked from beneath was a problem before, the shield usually gave me enough time to get off a few swings at those attacking me. It may only be the difference between dying in four seconds vs less than one second, but it was enough to make me feel that I had a chance... and it took a team, rather than being something a solo spammer could manage by attacking me straight on. Attack speed abuse has always been there, but this change has lowered the skill bar required to abuse flourishes effectively. I'm seeing more players commit to standing slugfests rather than the peck-and-dash style of really effective strikers pre bug.

Overall, there has been a lot of good with this bug, with some downsides.

As far as the weapon balance goes, it's much better now. Not just between the 3 types, but within them as well. There are still some oddballs, but with this it won't be as hard to fix. Weapons work together better now too allowing for more combinations leading to more weapon variety. More weapon variety is always good and will cause people to try out more weapons for LD which can possibly lead to more CE bought. As for weapons I've seen people call OP...

Flourish types - It's really not much different from before. Before if you got hit once by a flourish type, chances were you were going to die due to the interrupt and fast attacks. Now it just makes that happen faster, but your counter attacks will be far deadlier (assuming you are not using a flourish type). Yes, they have become deadlier, but in my opinion they did not gain nearly as much as other weapons did. Another thing is that we don't see many bombs being used in lockdown, so if more bombs were used I imagine flourish users (as well as other swordsmen) would have a harder time.

Blitz Needle - Yes, getting hit by the charge = death, but most people don't take some things into account. Firstly, if you see someone charging a blitz needle, you know what they are going for, which is to one-shot kill you. This makes them extremely predictable. Since they are charging, they leave themselves wide open to attacks and have reduced mobility, meaning someone can come up from behind and attack them. There won't be much they can do about this. Also, the pattern of the charge attack is a fan shape. The farther away you are, the easier it will be for the blitz to hit you. If you get in close, you must be directly in front of the way the person is facing for them to hit you. Finally, there is a good delay between letting go of the charge and actually shooting. This delay can easily be used to counter attack, and since it was a charge the game seems to add "super armor" so you can hit away without their animation being cancelled. Blitz can be countered and is rather risky to use, but people don't think about how to counter it and therefore, get one shot killed.

RSS - If you get one shotted by a RSS, it's because you were foolish enough to walk onto it >_>. Pull out a gun, you will notice a drastic difference in how hard or easy it is to handle.

Some other things I have noticed....

Attacks from below - Although this has been happening before the bug too, this tactic is now a ton more effective... Maybe too effective. One can charge a blitz and take out two to three people standing on a capture point without any warning. If this "bug" were to stay maybe something should be done about the camera angle abuse, or we'd continue to see this get abused.

Guardian shield - Now melts like hot butter. Way too easy to take out, and once their shield is down there is nothing they can do. I now see far more recons than guardians, which should tell you something is wrong.

Recon - This class is MUCH better with this change. Before, you could not take good advantage of the element of surprise, but now it can. It can pull off the attack from below tactic except from any angle. The Death Mark now actually means death. The charge time reduction bonus is no longer a waste either, as rapid hit charges can now hit rapidly. Still waiting to see a Divine Avenger charge come out.

Health Trinkets - These don't seem to be as effective as they were before. Before, with the invincibility frames, the health helped more cause it allowed an extra hit, which then was far more time to live than it is now. They still will help you live, but ASI is very useful now, and by using health trinkets you losing out on ASI (unless of course you have UVs on your stuff). Now the choice between a better offense or a better defense must be made.

Armors - Starting to see colorful loadouts everywhere, and it's only getting more colorful. The armors however haven't changed all that much, because while the weapons have experienced balancing, the armors have not changed as much. This in my opinion would not help balance out armors as much although it is a very welcomed change.

Overall, LD is now a lot more fun and interesting than before. There are some downsides to this change, but I believe they can be easily fixed.

PROS:
Going against a lot of enemys has a lot of risks, so now you are pretty much not able to go 1v5 rambo clickspam because you will die almost instantly.

Also, if there is more danger ingame then you would have to dodge a lot of attacks rapidly, wich in my opinion would give the games more action.

I also kind of like it because game goes a lot more faster, and the game is a lot of dangerous, I like fast games, and with this, it would give lockdown a little bit more of teamwork gameplay if the team doesnt want to die.

CONS:
You die very fast.

People in groups are just very very deadly (maybe too deadly)

A lot of weapons would be very OP (*cough* DVS *cough*)

Game would turn out to be too easy for a good ammount of players, and impossible for another group.

Auto-Target Spam click.

If all it took was the removal of invincibility frame mechanics to make Lockdown that much more balanced (far from perfectly balanced, but significantly more balanced than before), I don't know what to say.

Wall of text warning.

I should note that all my comments below are based on T1 play, since that's my primary tier and the only one I've played since the change. With that said, I'm not thrilled with the change, and worried about the possibility that it might become permanent.

- As I play guardian almost exclusively, I feel that the strength of the class has been greatly reduced to the point where it's no longer a valid form of play. I've always thought one of the most interesting parts of playing as guardian was that its strength was primarily in defense. Even if you couldn't kill someone, it would take them a while to kill you (allowing you to stay on the point and gain your team some points). This has essentially been removed, since guardian shields now break in seconds and death follows seconds later. Since I think all classes should be playable, I think this is a problem. Nor do I think giving guards additional health would really help. Since guards have intrinsically lower ASI than strikers and T1 has no trinkets to make up for this, it's very difficult to even land hits on strikers once they've started attacking, and running from them is not even an option. More than one comment above says "you can just dodge the attacks" - but I'd like to continue playing as a guardian, and I'd like for that to be a valid choice.

- While I'm a huge fan of team tactics, this change makes it nearly impossible to stay alive for any length of time against a team, meaning that I suspect games will devolve into large team battles. Epic and exciting, maybe, but not as interesting as the constantly shifting battlefield created when it's possible for one person to hold a point against two others at least for a short time. (Unless they are strikers who can dodge well - in which case see my first comment.)

- Corollary: If one team is better than the other in a team fight (i.e. the teams are not perfectly balanced, which as we all know is common in LD), the better team will consistently be able to lock the worse team inside their base. Even if the worse team's players try to fly or cloak their way past the barricade, they can be hunted down in very little time before they have the chance to capture points. Most games will be decided in the first engagement.

- One of the things I liked about T1 was that even if you were completely new to the game, as long as you played as a non-striker, you'd have enough health that you could actually do a few things before you died. You could try out some gear, some basic fighting tactics, and then someone would tell you to get some one-star gear and heat it up. Once that happened you could be a solid contributor to your team even if you hadn't practiced, didn't have UVs on your gear, etc. With this change I feel that the barrier to entry will become much, much higher. The very difficult skill of dodging attacks will become a necessity simply to survive (and at the risk of harping too much on this point, I'll point out that it's only possible as a striker), and new players who don't have that skill might give up. The T1 community is small enough as it is - I'd rather that the barrier to entry stay low.

- Rocket hammers, once merely insane and somewhat overpowered weapons, are now...beyond insane. It used to take the hands of a very skilled user to make them truly unfair. Now, it feels like anyone can pick up a rocket hammer and the striker class and just go to town on anyone who doesn't have said rocket hammer. As a free-to-play player I dislike the idea that I wouldn't be able to be competitive without the paid-only weapon, but more generally I dislike the fact that the "valid" weapon choices have been significantly narrowed.

- I get the argument about weapon variety, and I'd certainly be interested in taking a Striker (the sword, that is) into a T2 game, but in T1 there aren't very many weapons to choose from in the first place, and I for one am satisfied with the variety we see - there's not much value added by somehow artificially making the Big Beast Basher into a valid choice. So that doesn't make a big difference for me.

- I will say it's interesting that guns would probably get better with this change - but it's once again much easier for strikers to deal with guns than guardians.

- On the flipside I suspect bombs would get worse (even though the only time when I was actually useful in any of the games I played was when using a firecracker, because playing as a guardian with a heavy hatchet was completely ineffective), so in terms of whether the change increases valid weaponry choice, I'd guess that it would probably end up net neutral.

In summary I'd say it was interesting with the caveat that guardians need a boost...except I can't really think of a way to implement a boost that would balance things properly, besides "let guardians have invincibility frames but no one else", which doesn't seem quite right either. Extra health wouldn't do it because if you can't counterattack, extra health just means you die in six seconds instead of five. Powering up the shield might keep you alive longer but still doesn't let you deal damage. Until someone can come up with a good way to rebalance guardians, I'd be against the change. And even then I'd be very wary of it.