Strikers can dash inside status bombs they are immune to no problem. Guardians and recons are kinda screwed. I might be nearly invulnerable while in the field, but I certainly can't strike back or move either. When I try to put up my shield to parry, my timing gets all screwed up. I'd love to retaliate inside the field, but I get to be rooted to the ground instead. Frankly, the bomb shouldn't ping the SHIELD (or cloaked recons for that matter). It does no damage, and can do nothing to it. It can pulse on everything else. Surely that's possible to code.

"Or making it so that Strikers dashing through mist lose their boost like the Recon's lose their cloak... that would probably get people raging a lot though."

+1 to this. It would make Strikers think twice before dashing in in an attempt to get a first hit and then running far away to wait for the shock status to expire. Not sure how it would work if the Striker has immunity to shock though.

Speaking of status immunity, how much resist must be on the armor and helm for them to resist Minor statuses? Is it just a maximum UV on each, or it has to be a maximum UV on each on top of an inherent maximum resist (eg. Divine Veil/Cloak, Mercurial Demo set, Mercurial mail)?

I'd like to suggest that the game shows the damage one causes to an opponent in numbers, exactly as you can see it now in the clockworks.

I also wouldn't mind having full inspect in LD.

I use AA often, but I would have no problem giving that up if 360 degree sword attacks were removed.

I can't tell how often being killed by a sword when you are further to your opponent than the length of that sword is caused by lag, but if the lag is not the cause then I would like to see the damage area of the sword adjusted to the visible sword damage area on the screen.

It makes absolutely no sense that some hits of a weapon to an opponent do not cause any damage. I have nothing against balancing the damage of all weapons' hits, although I can also handle them just fine as they are now.

I've seen many people playing LD over the weekend, maybe as many as any weekend. Players who used to do a lot of damage before, also did a lot of damage after the removal of the invincibility frames. Even those who complained about the changes kept playing many many matches afterwards - nobody plays a game if they don't enjoy it, do they?

@Bulby

You talk about the "odds" of going on outnumbered, However, with invincibility frames there is actually 0 difference in odds when going 1v1 or 1v3 or 1v5 or whatever. Why? because invincibility frames put a hard cap on how much damage you can receive. Going 1v1, there is a minimum time before you will get taken down. Going 1v2 THIS TIME IS EXACTLY THE SAME. Going 1v10 THIS TIME IS EXACTLY THE SAME. That is A CAP ON DAMAGE RECEIVED. Which means being attacked by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or more players is in fact not disadvantageous. In fact, with invincibility frames, YOU WANT your enemies to attack you at the same time, because your DPS output will be multiplied based on HOW MANY people you can hit with one swing.

In a 1 v mob attack. (And by mob I mean they pile on you so you can hit them all with a single swing).
The single player's DPS is *
The mobs DPS is * 1. (Attacking in groups is severely detrimental to DPS making attacking in groups ineffectual and pointless)

It just looks like 1 v mob is some crazy ridiculous feat of effort, but in actuality, because of the mechanics, it is not actually that big of a deal. Bring a wide arching weapon, and you can cut down a group of players with not much more difficulty than 1v1.

Yes it is smarter if a group of enemies relied on special effects like the guardian shield and recon's defense debuf when doing teamwork. However if you go 1v3, that is YOUR FAULT, it SHOULD be a considered bad error on your part, and you should be punished for it, not rewarded. And let me re-iterate on that. When you go 1v3 you are REWARDED with a MUCH HIGHER DPS output potential.

I agree, winning 1v3 should be an incredible feat of skill. However with this mechanic. It is NOT. Winning 1v3 is simply something that happens simply because of the mechanics of damage, and is not an indicator of skill. You are saying that you do not like the fact that it is HARDER to win going 1v3. The truth is, you simply want to be able to think that you are awesome, but you don't actually want to have any measurable skill above and beyond the norm to pull it off. Invincibility frames TRIVIALIZE the ability to win 1v3.

On another note, double tramming is a very common strategy in team based sports. It is not some sort of cheap tactic. If there is a superstar player, you bet he will get double teamed. But what the defending team has to consider, is if they really want to leave that other player wide open. He isn't a super-star, but you better believe he can score if he is left unattended.

And if you are a superstar lock-down player, and you think it terms of team play, you realize, that if you are being double teamed or triple teamed, the truth is, YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT player, even if you die. Why? because when the opposing team triple teams you, the opposing team is making a huge sacrifice to defending their points. If you are being chased by the enemy team, all you have to do is ask your teammates to go and cap the now unattended points. In the future, if, this game-play mechanic is adjusted so that being mobbed is certain death, remember this, don't think of winning in terms of killing off the enemy players, think of WINNING as DISTRACTING the mob long enough for the rest of your team to capture then entire map.

The biggest problem with invincibility frames is that is institutes a kind of cap to damage received. And as described above, it breaks some things. I think it breaks a lot of thing.
I think it overemphasizes health (why are health trinkets so popular? now I understand) (I understand de-emphasizing health will make guardians even more useless, but guardians needs to be balanced in other ways than, Ha I have more health than you).
I think it completely breaks cutters, and other fast swinging, low damage swords/weapons. Basically, Invincibility frames modifies the DPS of fast weapons into oblivion.

Some people say that taking out invincibility frames doesn't fix the balancing issues. I agree, you still need to balance things, even if you remove it. I however believe that removing invincibility frames will do a lot to enable balancing. However, everything is a moot point if OOO continues to refuse to balance weapons in LD differently than they balance them for the Clockworks. The meta-game for LD will always be a broken mess if LD isn't balanced separately from clockworks. And let me re-iterate, the meta-game for lockdown is an absolute mess, that is why you see complaints of FF wielding Skolvers all the time. Just another reason not to take LD seriously at all.

Have you ever tried to beat a double team like Thrillhaus and Canozo? It's dang near impossible by yourself. Here's something else for you to think on, I've totally thrashed entire groups thanks to this bug without even trying! The battles are no longer about skill. Before, the odds were around 30-70 in favor of the mob (maybe even more lop-sided, but I'm being conservative). Now it's more like 50-50. All that matters is pretty much whoever gets the first strike. If someone in the mob you're fighting gets it you'll probably lose, but if YOU get it it's extremely easy dispatching an entire group because NONE of them have a chance to react. I've been able to consistently rip through a group of 3 or 4 in mere seconds. Whereas before, It would take some considerable skill and time to pick off each person one at a time. And really, the only time I could hit more than one person at the same time was if they were all bunched together in a nice compact package. But even then, pre-bug, after I would hit two people simultaneously (and this was usually on my first strike sneak attack in the blind spot) each one of them had a frame of invincibility and had the opportunity to run in all different directions and mount a counter strike. If they stayed bunched up so I could hit them all at once, shame on them. Now, thanks to this bug, my first strike has been magnified three-fold and a group of 3 or 4 no longer has a chance to mount a defense; Especially if I have a Blitz Needle. Thanks to the bug, taking on a mob is REALLY no great feat at all anymore. It's a toss-up!

Lockdown, as it stands, takes to effort and no has no need for strategy. If it remains the way it is now it will lose its attraction and die very quickly. If you really want this implemented, then I suggest only one thing: There be two lockdowns. One Lockdown would keep this bug and the other be put back the way it was. This way, you can see beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there will be more people in the classic Lockdown. I know, it may seem like this new version is fun now, you get to use two (yeah, that's right, only TWO) new weapons and and you don't have to think as much, OMG! It won't take long though for this to get really old really fast.

You can inspect other players by clicking their names on the end-game report, proven they haven't left the party. Inspection is, as always, affected by whether or not they have full inspection allowed.

not if they have a costume on

i just hate it when some1 sneaks up with blitz and instantkills me while i hav no clue, theyr not even visible on my screen, thats rly unfair.
also as an aussie i suffer lag, lag, lagg latttencyyy, sometimes its just frustrating to deal with these blitz trollers.

well now im afraid of capping :P i just go out and mass kill, if theres a blitz well good luck, ill pick my hammer, fov and get aa on spam the screen.

^ what he said

FF - BTB Hits 3-3 in combo

Hammer Insta-kill

Blitz Charge and some other swords Insta-kill

But think a little...

Does everyplayer always aim correct to the target?

The real problem is not the damage or the weapons or the frap invulnerability.. the problem is that OOO AIMS FOR THE NOOBS..

If OOO remove AA, there will be NO PLAYER HITTING 3 Hit Combo, or hitting FULL- TIME WITH THE HAMMER, There will be NO PLAYER hitting every single attack with Cutter Lines...

Like I said.. the problem is not the damage... is the noobs spamming with AA ABUSING OF THE FEATURE...

I'm sure if OOO removes AA from Lockdown.. ppl will not longer complain... and all the "good players" will convert in noobs in 0.00025 seconds

Could you just change Blitz and not the whole Autogun line? I really liked using my Volcanic Pepperbox...

So I've been keeping track of the bug and what's generally been discussed so far about it. I personally haven't played LD since the bug came, but it's easy enough for me to imagine what it has caused so far. I certainly agree with a good portion of what Gwen has stated in the past, but here's something I'm gonna add in regards to to the mist affect guardians and recons.

Now Guardian shields pulsing and recon cloak fields disabling are certainly annoying; more so the former for me, because I tend to play a lot as Guardian. True, the 'statis' effect does make you somewhat invulverable to attacks as a guardian, but it's still annoying as heck, especially when it hinder's my movement. Honestly, if I'm not immune to the mist's status, I should be able to choose to walk normaly through it, since I completely trade my ability to attack within the mist in the first place. I have two choices then; wait for the mist to dissapear before lowering shields, or, if I'm forced into the situation, disable it and take the status. That's kind of a decision maker there.

I suppose the stasis is debatable, since both being able to simply wade through to the mist to heal your allies and simply sticking in the mist in stasis both have strategic value to extent. I just find the latter very annoying, especially when you get trapped; there should at least be some leeway in getting out of a mist more quickly with enemies around as opposed to being 'snared' with them waiting to cause you problems.

Moving onto the recon, I'm in partial disagreement with mist bombs being unable to deactivate cloak. Don't get me wrong; it's even more annoying find your entire cloak gone from a mist that isn't supposed to do damage (Excluding fire and shock), and more specifically, doing it once you touch the mist. However, I'm against recons going through mist cloaked, when they're immune to the status, without some kind drawback, because in some realistic fashion, it's a cloaked figure walking through a thick cloud. Think about that: an invisible entity walking through a thick cloud is bound to stir up movement, and give away his location.

In a manner of speaking, instead of the mist taking away his entire cloak, the recon is simply revealed until he exits the mist (Of course another explanation is that the cloaking equipment shorts when walking in a dense, status cloud like that, but let's all realism dictate every bit of gameplay). This does add the option of detecting recons with mists they're immune to, but still hold the chance of losing them, as Recon's could chance a walk to commit to certain task, like laying down the death mark.

Just food for thought ;).

@Feller Removing AA certainly would help, though the chances of that are probably slim, seeing it wasn't initially there then they added it in. Also I know this would not affect gunners much at all, since AA is more of a detriment than a help for aiming with a gun. I imagine there would be a huge change if it happened though.

The main thing I see wrong with bringing back invincibility frames (for good anyway) is that weapons work the way they were intended to work without them. Yes, alchemers are supposed to be able to clip and autoguns should be able to hit rapidly. The hammer is supposed to hit multiple times on the dash. Toothpicks and Cutters are supposed to be able to hit with all attacks in their combo, and the list goes on. Balancing a weapon by breaking it's mechanic is not the best way to do it. There are other ways, like what Feller said, reducing damage or making it scale down the damage as you land more hits in succession. There weren't so many complaints about the weapons working as intended in PVE, so why get so worked up on it now?

You make this thread sparkle with hope.

I never said weapons were ever broken in PVE, I meant they work they way they were designed to work like. Invincibility frames were hindering a lot of things because the weapons were seemingly designed to be in environment with no invincibility frames. Like I said before if dying too fast to a mob of players is an issue for you a sizable damage reduction of all weapons for lockdown could solve that.

Also, teamwork will beat out a team that lacks organization. There is more to teamwork than just execution of good timing. If you suspect a mob is coming, you can set up a trap with your teamates to counter their rush. The problem with the old system that had invincibility frames is that it made a lot of weapons seemingly useless. If people had to take turns hitting guy, why would you want to use a weaker weapon to deliver blows? it would only serve to hurt the team more than help. If you can only hit a guy once at a time, you might as well make the most of it. Also, why have multiple people attack the guy when one guy could do it solo and stun lock the guy while he was at it? There was no point in doing so, and I found myself a lot of times simply not bothering to attack, because it was only harming, not helping.

Also, when one guy rushes up to 3 people on a capture point and they all attack and hit successfully, why should two out of 3 attacks from the three people not count at all? The one guy's attack on the three people counts as one hit on all three, so why can't their three attacks count as one hit from each person, totaling three hits, on the one guy? Everyone successfully landed a hit, so everyone's hit should count. With the bug-less system the outcome of this situation would result in the one guy getting three hits, one on each guy, and the three getting one hit despite the fact that all three people landed a hit. This is not right.

So, you are arguing that it is easier for you to go against mobs now? OK... That is definitely not what I read in your previous posts.
I thought you where arguing the opposite. When you say things like "people are overjoyed that they can now mob people to tears" that is the impression I get.
I thought you where saying that people could simply mob you to win and that you where complaining about it being harder to fight off mobs.

But in your last post you make it clear that it is easier to fight off mobs, which is counter-intuitive to me, but if that is what you are saying I won't argue against that (I hope you aren't just flipping your story around for convenience). All I care is that fighting against a larger group should make it more lopsided against you.

I'm not really sure how this bug makes it easier to fight multiple opponents, but does this happen because of how the faster hits interact with the stuns/canceling opponent attacks? An deeper explanation would be appreciated, out of curiosity that is.

I would just like to say then, ensuring that you are in an even match up, is definitely a part of teamwork, and outnumbering your opponent in one part of the map is a tactical decision.

If you use a mist bomb against a trojan, you'll notice it will not affect him when he is facing the center of the mist, or where the bomb was set off from. It, however, does not make continuous ping noises, meaning the attack is being blocked, but the trojan not "ping locked" (for lack of better term lol) as a result. So yes, it is possible to make it so the mist does not "ping lock" the guardian while he's shielding in the mist. Don't know how simple it will be though.

When you run headfirst into a mob of four people you're kind of asking for it. You shouldn't pamper the reckless just because they tried to be the hero and take out a group solo but failed. If you're truly skilled you'll still pull it off, so making arguments against a group of people for focusing their offence on one person when there is just...one person on the field is kind of silly, in my opinion. If you get mobbed and cannot counter it, improve. Don't complain about 'no invincibility frames'. You can use that very feature to secure victory as well.

If people are dieing fast... and its due to weapons now working the WAY THEY SHOULD...

Looks like its time to Buff ALL sets but optimizing, and half buff the Hybrid sets...

More Health bonus, more Defense. OH LOOK. Bonus = Defense. Optimizers are glass cannons, and all the others can be surviving tanks... in the clockworks AND PvP.

@Tsubasa-No-Me Yet another possible solution, which would kill two birds with one stone. Those with wolver/gunslinger/demo lines would have the upper hand in offense, but would be taken down easily. Those with the defensive armors would have a lesser offense, but would be harder to take down. Though there might need to be a little extra balancing for those defensive armors that grant small offensive bonuses (I don't mean the damage vs. monster type ones).

@Aureate The cutter has a small range and is easy to dodge if you stay on the move. Even then, a flourish could stun lock you before the bug anyway. Maybe a better solution would be to remove interrupt from lockdown altogether, so at least people who are hit would have a chance to escape.

Were you set on fire, or was this just damage from the charge?

Either way the alchemer charge is supposed to be extremely painful, though you have to hit the target just right to get the full effect of it (which is probably what happened to you). But, like I said before multiple times (Someone else alluded to it too) if damage is too much of an issue a universal damage nerf for lockdown could solve that, without breaking the way weapons are supposed to work. Yes, an alchemer charge is supposed to be able to hit you multiple times.

After reading a hundred posts, my head is starting to hurt.

Here, from my NON UV'D HALF MAD BOMBER DOUBLE TRI-PENDANT observations, are what this bug does in Lockdown T3.

FLOURISHES: As powerful as ever. If you're caught by one, you're dead. However, they were pretty much this way in old Lockdown. And, contrary to popular belief, they are avoidable.

HAMMERS: I don't see why people hate them so much. Maybe it's the elemental defense on my Mad/Volcanic, and the fact that DR rips them up. I do have an idea: in Lockdown ONLY (to avoid causing trouble in PvE), make only one of the explosions hit, and not cause hit-stun. I can imagine they'd be worse in lower tiers; this nerf will probably help.

SEALED SWORDS: Regular swings unaffected. The charge is probably much more dangerous now, which is OK; nobody used the charge before and it's avoidable. Fix the glitch that causes them to go poof on CPs and I'll legit fear that triple arrow.

CUTTERS: Like a breath of fresh air to be killed by something other than a Flourish. Cutters can actually do something now. Keep in mind though- EVERY OTHER SWORD OUT RANGES THEM, and if I've got a charged RSS in my hands when you get close... you're dead.

LEVI/CIV/FOV: The charge is funny.

BRANDISHES: Viable in PvP now, because enemies will ride the charge explosions. Deadly with a Combuster (burn Skolver burn!) or a Nightblade (nobody packs Shadow defense these days). Cautery Sword being the obvious exception, but that's a subject for another time.

SUUUUUUUUUUUUDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA: Combo is as lame as ever. But the charge... just... the charge. Ever seen a max damage Triglav charge? Things die.

WINMILLION: Even this is slightly more viable; the slash and bullet both hit! Obviously it's as un-used as ever, but with a 5* version added...

VALIANCE: Now all the shots connect. Good. There oughta be at least half a reason to expend your whole clip.

AUTOGUNS: Needlers deal heavy damage; the Blitz does more damage, while the Plague comes with an obnoxious debuff. The Volcanic Pepperbox can be used to push away entire groups of foes while setting them on fire. However, keep in mind that 1) you have to BE STANDING COMPLETELY BLEEPING STILL TO FIRE IT, and 2) you have to BE STANDING COMPLETELY BLEEPING STILL on a CP to get OHKO'd. Running around the needler in circles could probably be an effective tactic, as would be... let's say, using that Recon Cloak?

ALCHEMERS: Others have touched on the double hits the Drivers now get. I think this is a good thing.

CATALYZERS: Trolololololol!

PULSARS: As irritating as ever. (insert page-length Bomber rant here) They didn't get too majorly buffed, but did they need to? Their function remains unhindered.

ANTIGUAS: More powerful. But they're not so bad- try running around like a lunatic. It really throws them off. What the Antiguas gained is the ability to give a fellow gunner, or a swordsman or bomber, reliable support fire.

CALLAHAN/IRON SLUG: Useful for a hit-and-run Recon that likes the chance to cause Stun.

NITRO: Same use as always: blow away anyone that doesn't have a shield or a cool banner on their back.

OTHER BLAST BOMBS: Useless as always. No wonder the BAB's so angry.

DBB: Same use it always had. It may be a little outclassed now, but one can still drop it in on a battle and do some area damage. Also a good hit-and-run Recon weapon, it'll keep the baddies distracted.

MIST BOMBS: They have the same use they always did; keeping anyone without a gun or resistance off a CP. They were exactly the same way before this patch. With one major difference; all the gunners coming out with Seerus masks will be much more susceptible to a surprise Shivermist. (Shiver+Shards is so funny in PvP.)

SHARD BOMBS: Only major difference here is, anyone stepping on the RSS or ISB dies. That should happen anyway. Also, you could have 4+ people spamming these and turning the game into a bullet hell- but a simple counter to that is just getting the CPs they're not at.

SEERUS BOMBS: These bombs now retain'eth their use in PvP. It's funny to see Skolvers walk around inside them; it's even funnier to see them stand outside them and just not do anything. However, any attack with some kind of reach (from the Suda charge to that **** Polaris) will blow up the poor bomber that spams it.

VORTEX BOMBS: Now one can use them as they are meant to be used in PvE, with another guy waiting nearby with a charged attack. Also benefit from the lack of Guards around- but this should be fixed soon enough.

STRIKER DASH: Now has some things it should fear that AREN'T swordy strikers. The aforementioned Vortex+Charge attack lurking nearby? Dead. DR, when the Striker has no sidearm? Dead. Stupidly steps on an RSS or ISB? Dead. Spotted by a careful-aiming Blitz sniper? Dead. However, it retains use as an arena-surveying warrior.

RECON CLOAK: Now has some viability. Sure, if you're hit, you're dead- it was that way before. But there are ways to not be hit. Someone (Seiran I believe) had a guide on this type of thing.

GUARDIAN SHIELD: Alas poor Guardies. Their shield is torn to splinters now. One solution would be to give the Shield (and possibly the Guardian himself) increasing percentile defenses that go up with each consecutive hit in a short period of time. So that Flourish combo would not only work less efficiently against the Shield, but the Guardian himself would be able to take it far more efficiently.

TEAMWORK: One striker should lose against three strikers. It's that simple. There are many ways to chain your weapons together- using your Sudaruska to push a foe into your ally's Vortex, which is then mauled by a Glacius charge, leaving them frozen in place for an RSS or Blitz to rip up.

As for that SUPER GIGA OVERPOWERED surprise attack, that has really not happened to me. Then again, I don't stand smack in the center of the CP doing nothing- I move and drop bombs. Gunners can be firing a pulsar or simply cloak on the side of the CP. Swordies can keep a weapon charged for when the ambusher comes by; Bulby's ambush would be stopped short if someone unloads a Voltedge charge in his face. (Or Glacius. Skolvers aren't immune to Glacius.) Standing on a CP and not doing anything gets you killed, and is no doubt the root of Bulby's success. Mindlessly dashing into a CP clearly hasn't gotten him burned...yet. (Come back when you get DR'd to death.)

DYING TOO FAST: If this is a problem, universal T3 Lockdown damage nerf, it hits everyone.

SPAWN CAMPING: Is harder when you got someone outside shooting needles at you.

HITSTUN: Now here's where things get ugly- the hitstun. Bulby's surprise attacks probably utilize this to every possible extent. Hitstun is basically the stun you get on being hit, also known as interruption. It's DR's biggest point (as far as I know, stupid Strikers NEVER tell me how much damage my DR is doing on them! ARGH!), and one of the things that makes people gripe about hammers and cutters.

What I'm proposing is something that will probably make Tsu's day: give full suits of Plate lines full immunity to Hitstun, and full suits of regular "defensive" armors (Cobalt, Jelly, Skelly, Grey Feather, Almirian Crusader, etc.) "resistance" to Hitstun- either by a chance of immunity to the interruption, a severely weakened effect, or immunity against interruption from only one damage type (Normal for Cobalt, Shadow for Skelly, and so on; split damage caught in either category will be affected). Half suits of Plate, Skelly, etc. give a 50% immunity rate. Now not only are other armors viable choices, but the issue of Hitstun is fairly fixed. Ta-daah!

Before you say "LOL stupid hipster just wants a buff for his armor", my only 5* suit is a Demo Suit, which would not receive anything from this.

Maybe for some reason the knight's hitbox is bigger or just the right shape to get hit multiple times easily. I notice on turrets you can hit them dead center with a charge and they will take the full force of the attack. Or maybe on his side he actually clipped you, I do get that wierd lag a lot.

You brighten the future of this thread.