I never said that Skolver clones should be the best setup in every situation. Like I said previously I'm all for more diversity of load-outs and play styles. But when any player can come in, with a blitz and do just as good if not better than a skilled player thats been playing for months , and then claim it's more 'balanced' then I do have a problem with it.

While I don't want this bug to remain unfixed, I do actually like some of the changes it's brought about. One such being that strikers are essentially a glass cannon. Following the recent patch, a striker can no longer run into a mob of strikers and guardians and expect to come out on top. It encourages teamwork and for people to stay in a group. Which further highlights the primary role of the guardian, to protect strikers. However it doesn't help if the guardian's shield is the equivalent of wet paper. Then there is the recon, which I'm not really qualified to speak on but I think we can all agree that they need some love.
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I think this claim might be over exaggerated, trumped up, or embellished.

Get your Blitz Needle battle packs now kiddies, and be in-game dominating the competitive PvP scene in no time!

quaint comment here about scissors calling OOO to discuss the status of rock.

I also agree with Milkman.

I played LD for the first time today after the update. I've had so much fun with the matches, but also because of those players getting so mad for the lack of invincibility frames. It's nice that the outcome of a game is not determined by a certain player being in a team, not as much as it was before at least. Looking forward to the changes OOO is preparing for the game :).

PS: I've seen one or two matches where a player got locked in their home area by 2-3 opponents (no bombs, just swords and guns). That player emerges to attack the opponents (not to run away and try to cap), does a few hits, dies, *complain* bug *complain*, emerges, does a few hits, dies, *complain* noobs *more complain*, emerges, does a few hits, dies, *curse* bug *complain* etc. This strategy might have worked before the changes, it's nice that it doesn't now and a team can shred a single player.

As a guardian, I hate this. I often find myself stunlocked by a couple of gunners or cutter-line wielders. My shield feels quite worthless at times. Also, I carry the Fang of Vog in Lockdown, which is quite worthless if you don't use the charge. Therefore, if I walk too close to a needle with a charge loaded, I get shot in the face without any means of defending myself. I have no ability to raise the shield at all. Therefore, I die. Of course, there are some good things about this. As I've already mentioned, I carry the mighty Fang of Vog. Earlier, you could only hit once with the charge due to the stagger mechanics. Now, I can hit many times not only in the clockworks. Of course, this doesn't always happen. Sometimes I only hit once. But when I hit many times, I usually kill people. Or break their shields. The charge breaks shields quite often. Also, I carry a Dread Venom Striker. I now hit with the regular strikes and the weaker ghost strikes. Still, this isn't that useful in all scenarios. Same for the Fang of Vog. It's not good for PvP at all, actually. But until I get a better weapon, I'll have no choice but to carry it with me. No matter, the cons are greater than the pros for a guardian and therefore, I want this gone. LD is already broken enough.

"I have a Fearless Rigadoon that I can get to Max ASI. Let me tell you, the Flourish combo at Max Speed was NEVER enough to hit on an invincability frame... this means: The Toothpicks work the same as they did Pre-Patch.

I know this, I tested SPECIFICALLY for it. No change... The only thing it does is let all the other toothpicks hit you at the same time."

This is simply untrue. The 2nd hit of a (pre-bug) flourish goes through the invincibility frame, the 3rd hit lands. If you have less than stellar ping, the timing of the bars falling off is out-of-sync with the attack animation. It would be nice if people who don't actually play lockdown on a regular basis would stop spreading misinformation, particularly when the issue affects their Spiral Knights experience much less than others.

Smashgear: But when any player can come in, with a blitz and do just as good if not better than a skilled player thats been playing for months, and then claim it's more 'balanced' then I do have a problem with it.

This is silly.

What are you're calling "good". Damage?
So you can assassinate one or two people standing together on a point if you get a blindspot charge attack with Blitz Needle. Blitz charge hurts, but if you wanna shoot from out of their vision, you'll have to try to shoot to the edge of your distance. This means if you wanna hit them, you AND your targets need to be stationary. That group of people you just killed with Blitz on a cap point? You could have shown up as a sword recon and killed them all at once, because they were stupidly standing next to each other. In other words, they were damage fodder, and you got to them first.

Last night, someone on my team asked if he should use full combos because one of the guys on the other team was doing it and getting high damage, and I said no. You can bully bad players by using these tactics, weapons, or whatever many of you are calling "cheap", but those things won't work (for long) against skilled players.

If you wanna see if something "does better" than a skilled player, try actually putting them up against skilled players and see for yourself.

"when any player can come in, with a blitz and do just as good if not better than a skilled player thats been playing for months , and then claim it's more 'balanced' then I do have a problem with it."

Thats just like a flourish... Get one, turn on AA, and OH LOOK, 10-20k damage

This is where my respect for some of the posters here makes a retreat..

If you honestly think that someone unskilled with a toothpick and AA can do 20k damage, then I'm appalled. Go grab a flourish and turn AA on, and let me see you pull off 20k dmg.

When someone charges their blitz with a shadowsun beneath me in LD when I am capturing a point, I die. It wasn't my fault, and I couldn't have avoided it by any means. When someone charges you with a flourish, you are able to fight back. In that instance it is just experience versus experience, and roughly gea vs gear. If you die it is because that person was a better LD player than you in those few moments, and you are motivated to defeat them and get better. If someone one-shots you from somewhere you can't see them, you'll only get upset.

Some of you have been drawn into the facade that weapon diversity is equivalent to balance. It very well does not. Balance is when you have a fairly equal chance of defeating someone based on gear, and then the rest is determined by experience. I am not against weapon diversity in LD, but when it comes at the expense of LD you are bound to rub some people wrong.

@Grisolear
Yeah, because hindering the already least viable class in LD is just fine and dandy. What can guardians do exactly? If you haven't noticed, they don't get mega weapon boosts like recon and striker. They get ASI low for swords and CTR low for bombs and are expected to have their own UVs to pick up for the class' low bonuses. If they aren't good guardians, they are just sitting ducks waiting for you to plow through them. And with this recent patch, they are as durable as wet paper.

There is a relatively easy tactic that can mess up a blitz charge attempt: Don't stand still.

There is a small but noticeable delay before firing off the charge attack even with max gun speed. It's long enough to allow you to walk completely out of range of the blitz charge with minimal damage. After moving out the way, you can go in for a free kill.

Before complaining about something being OP, you should try and figure out ways around it....

I have to voice my objection to Tsubasa-No-Me's statement about invincibility not hindering AA-FF combos. It totally does. I tried learning the timing for it so I can wait just long enough for invincibility to wear off, but it takes too long and by that time the striker is on the other side of you. Which is why I had to pick up the usual swing dash swing tactic.

Pre-patch, you could not spam a FF combo with asi max and expect all the hits to register.

@Griseolar
The roles for classes are not as objective as you make them out to be. There is no hand guide on how to pilot each class. In your post you assign guardian a very limited role: support. What you do with each class is completely based on the player, and at least with striker and recon you have the bonuses to help you diversify your options. Strikers can do just about anything, from playing support, going on the offensive, and scouting. Recons can pretty much do everything a striker can, but more stealthily. The same doesn't always stand true for guardians. Guardians do have their niches, but for the most part they are limited for what they can do well.

The guardian class is nigh unplayable now. I am of the opinion that things should return to how they were, pre-bug. There's just too much spam, and better players are even more invincible now.

Also, +1 to Thrillhaus's original suggestion, if this bug becomes an actual feature.

The obvious solution to your specific issue would be to suggest that mist bombs simply not ping at guardian shields, rather than alter the properties of every single weapon. But I suppose there will always be people who would rather rotate their house to screw the light bulb in.

This quote kind of sums it up: "After breezing through this topic and totally not paying attention to what people are saying, I am in full support of this so-called bug."

Also, I like the way Warlordx put it:

"If this bug were to stick around for a couple of weeks people would figure out which weapons and strategies work best in this new environment, and then we'd be back to only a handful of weapons being truly viable again. That's how pvp works, that's how it works in any competitive environment, not all strategies and gear are equal. The weaker ones aren't going to be used as much. "

There will be a re-balance of power. This change does nothing but anger the people who have gotten to the top once already.

Thrillhaus...

I do play lockdown Quite a Bit, And I do know what I'm talking about. I sort of feel the same way you do, about the other side. So, Oh well. <.<

Coatl...

Well, you know what? I played two games where I turned on Auto aim, grabbed my Fearless rigadoon, and Used only that. Full combo and Shield cancel spam. You know what I got with ASI Max, Damage Med, and wearing Fallen Gear.

You wanna know what I got? 15k damage and 16k. With Sub-par Gear, weapons, and boosts.

All that the best equipment and Auto aim does is make it so you only have to worry about Ping and retreating. That does take some skill and a good computer... But its only ONE area that requires skill, it takes away Aiming and Multi-tasking... as well as retreating and teamwork.

Tell me thats right, why don't 'ya?

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What I find amusing:
"Before complaining about something being OP, you should try and figure out ways around it....
This is EXCATLY the same advice that the previous Elite's were giving those who complained about Wolvers and Optimizing gear, as well as Auto target. How funny is that?

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Another bit towards Bulby's Post...

The game is set up to be offensive, and the extra bar or two actually doesn't do too much for you... maybe ONE or two hits more... but that means almost nothing...

"So what if you can now group up and one shot a pro? Does that make you good? No. Does that make your team good? NO. If they were given the chance to react, they would destroy you"

That is called team work. It allows those who simply are NOT the best, be be a benefit to their team. It means that you Don't have to rely of those few gifted players... Or Better geared players... To win for you.

I dislike this bug.

Blitz is an insta-kill if you don't see it coming, and a good player can easily sneak up to you via the bottom of the screen. Even if you are moving, the Blitz spread can coat an entire point is danger. You'll either die from the charge alone, or be brought down to almost no health.

Flourishes are even more powerful, capable of ripping straight through someone if you can get a full combo to land

The Hammer now rips off 2/3 of my health in an instant. It insta-kills me if all the attacks can hit. I wouldn't mind this too much because DAs and GFs do it already... but the Hammer has the benefit of an absurd and unpredictable range. The DA and GF are balanced because they are slow and require the user to be incredibly close to use effectively. The Hammer sends the user across the screen with incredible speed.

There are only two things I like about this bug:

1) Cutters are viable and fun... I mean REALLY fun. They don't feel too imbalanced either.

2) You can now get people to "ride" Brandish Charge Shots. Charge Shots are already hard to land, now the game rewards you for landing them.

I've had so much fun using Glacius charge shots to freeze an enemy, and then walk up behind them with a Vile Striker Charge attack.

@Tsubasa-No-Me

I can confirm that on a toothpick with max asi, the 2nd swing would not hit pre-bug.
Post-bug, the 2nd swing hits.

I, and many others (Thrill and bulby, from this thread) can literally drop a full-health striker with the following:
1-2-dash-1-2
If they are wearing skolver with some pierce uv, then just add a 3rd swing on the last bit and they're dead, or shoot them with an AP.
It literally feels like one second.

It can be easily modified to effectively take on 4 or 5 less skilled people. Yes, even if they are comboing skolvers with AT.

What we are saying is that:

1) Yes, the new weapon diversity is nice, find a way to keep the other weapons usable.
but
2) Ensure that some weapons (read: toothpicks) can not be "abused" as I have described above.

Ok so heres an impartial idea that has nothing to do with nerfs or buffs that would keep players from getting trucked.

In the vitapod slot every player begins and respawns with a"green +2" invincipod. A green 2 will be clearly denoted just to the right of the players name.

When a player goes below 66% health they trigger "g2" display a small visable green flash indicating they have used the first of 2 invincability periods.

Now this player will have a "red 1" in their vita socket and by their name and have one invincability time out left for when their life falls to 33% or below resulting in a red flash and NO remaining numbers left next to their name.

This prevents anyone from getting the heinous 1HKO, and it also serves as a rudimentary health bar for focusing targets down.

Feel free to expand or suggest!

~Luke

If invincibility frames were used to help all the weapons except the one's that don't deserve it, only toothpicks and hammers (though I kinda disagree on this one, as you can easily sidestep the dash) would trigger the invincibility frames. As it stands now the invincibility frames hinder what most weapons are supposed to do because the weapons were designed in an environment where invincibility frames do not exist. Mobs do not have invincibility frames and when introduced in lockdown it messed up some of the weapons mechanics.

Also, if Lockdown is not fun because the weapons you use make it too easy, why not just switch weapons.....?

"My issue with the bug is actually that it makes many of the weapons I use too easy to use (less fun for both myself, and players who are getting killed by these weapons)."

Well then its time for Nerfs, riiight? Now what Have I been saying about balance?

Bulby... What you described is ONE kind of tactic... And Mobbing is yet another... Yeah, you feel as though you lost something by not being able to take down a large hoard of Noobs anymore, But it is STILL a teamwork tactic... because it requires multiple people to pull off.

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Hrrmmm... all this about the Flourish... My testing proves otherwise, but apparently not yours. Well, readers can take what they will.
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You know, I'm sick of guardians not being represented in good faith. People keep saying that most of these things are no problem, when they're only no problem to non-guards.

I've acquired 2.5k krogs from pure guardian. I think I have enough experience with the class to speak on it.
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Strikers and recons rely on dodging damage. That is, never taking it. We guardians rely on TAKING damage, usually to the shield. What we do is wait for an attack then parry-riposte, then push the advantage. We're slow as sin. We are immobile. We are the mountain, and will come down on you like a rockslide if you disrupt our ground.

We also have the greatest resistance to knockback. Now, anyone that uses the hammer in the clockworks knows that it is stupidly effective against enemies that aren't knocked back (i e, trojans/lumbers/vana), or backed into a corner. We guardians are trojans. As such, the hammer, blitz, anything that can dump massive damage on us is gonna be a far bigger issue for us than for any other class since they can just dodge it. That said, can we dodge things? Yes, but nowhere near as effectively. It's far easier to lead a walking/shielding target than one you can't see or one that moves like lightning.

Also, since we're so goddamn slow and can't vanish like recons, we can't go and catch gunners if they play with any intelligence (always keeping distance, and not allowing us to intercept a circle strafe pattern). Returning fire with a gun is out of the question since the enemy has superior mobility and I have a penalty to guns right off the bat. While they shoot at a slow-to-stationary target, I'd have to pin down a fly. As such, we're kinda screwed, with the consolation prize being that it usually takes them an age to kill me. Oh well, at least if you threw in a striker for assistance, it was never a problem so I let it slide; just a bit disappointed I could never have a good one on one fight with a gunner. Now, however, they can completely shut me down with Antigua or kill me off screen with a blitz. I can't even act as a distraction while alone anymore.

Why not run around on points, you ask? 'Cuz it's a good way to take health damage as a guard. We wait for you to come to us. Asking US to close the distance is idiotic since we're glaciers. Having our shield down is just begging to be pwnt, and now even with it up we're begging to be pwnt.
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The guardian is broken, and is the only class I play seriously in LD. As is, I'm now relegated to running around trolling people as a striker with these new broken mechanics/weapons. Wanna know what kind of score I get? Regularly 10-15k damage with a fair amount of caps. I'm a noob striker who can kill/outplay other strikers who have been playing for months more than me because of this. That isn't right. At all.

I want to get my two cents out before reading any of the commentary. My GF is definitely not a fan of the latest "changes," but she primarily plays as a guardian. Recon gunning is my usual poison.

1) I REALLY REALLY like seeing different weapons on the map. For the first time, it feels like I can use the full clip of my valiance rather than squeezing off one or two shots and running. I haven't whipped out my sentenza, yet, but I imagine it's a wee bit more viable now that I can shoot folks down.

2) Bombs are not be trifled with. I got shocked to death standing on an enemy shock bomb, and it made total sense because it shouldn't be something I can freely stand on.

3) It's only certain weapons I really am having a problem with. Primarily, it's the rocket hammer. That thing is super ridiculous in its current state. Cutters are troublesome, and blitzes are less of a problem. Of course, I have a range advantage so I can avoid the last two with more ease than a guardian would have.

Overall, seeing different weapons and strategies used in lockdown is nice to see. I am so incredibly sick of skolver/stick clones, and it's nice not having to resort to polaris to discourage them from charging at me. As a player, however, I refuse to use the blitz, the rocket hammer hammer, and cutters because it's a dick move exploiting those. One hit kills are simply not fun.

I quite agree with everything Gwen has said...

*Agrees with Milkman and Guyinshinyarmour and Thrill's suggestion*

I switched from Guardian to recon(though I'm better at Guardian) because what stats have Guardian is(which really is bad.. for a gunner like me)

(Might make a guardian set, Herp)

I'm sorry but mobbing somebody is definitely NOT a tactic. A tactic by definition is "the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle". "Mobbing" is most certainly NOT an art nor a science. At best, it is low-brow brute force. If an angry mob of people armed to the teeth were dispatched against a smaller but highly-trained team of soldiers they would get blow to pieces. The problem with lockdown right now is that it favors the "mobbing" plan of attack, which is very VERY stupid.

And in regards to being able to solo a group of noobs. You're darn right I'm upset. Before this mess started I could even sometimes take down a group of decent players too. But this isn't unfair. Heck, a sniper can pin down a whole squadron alone, but you don't hear people on the other side saying "Why are they allowed to use sniper rifles? That's so cheap! They should take away they're ability to do that!" It's more like "!@#$, we gotta get one of those in our group."

This reminds me a lot of the Battle of Thermopylae. Where a well trained/equiped minor force was able to take on a much larger but lesser trained/equiped force because of a bottle neck they had utilized. That is seriously the most EPIC thing I've ever heard of and I'm sure you'll agree. It is also one of the things that made LD so great - no matter the odds you could never fully count someone out because if they were well trained enough, they could take you down one right after the other and unless you beat them with equal or better skill you were eventually going to fail. What I feel has happened now is that the Persians have found the path around the bottle neck and our hero has been defeated by cheap tricks.

No, the Alchemers ricocheting is not an exploit. But what is is that your shots can richochet off you and teammates, making it very much possible to hit a single target 3 or 4 times with a single shot if you're gutsy enough to get up close. With AA, you can even skip the risky bit and just shoot at a zooming striker dead-on. I've killed many a skilled striker who would've finished me off by that, and I don't even get scratched.

So you don't want mist bombs to repeatedly stunlock a Guardian's shield like how Greavers' mist used to stunlock everyone's in PVE, then what do you propose? That the mist bomb only ticks once against their shield then that's it? Then what's the point of trapping them in mist bombs in the first place? They decided to dash into my Voltaic to get me, they should damn well be punished for doing so.

Well I personally don't have a problem with guardian shields getting stun locked in the mist bomb, but apparently you do which is why you brought it up. Your complaint was that you couldn't hit guardians shielding over mist prebug. I suggested a much less invasive solution for your complaint that doesn't involve leaving the bug in. The point of the mist bomb isn't to make to repeated ping their shields. It's to spread status. They still can't attack you if they decide to rush into your voltaic as they'll be shocked as soon as they stop shielding, unless they have shock resist in which case you'd be screwed anyway. Please think before you post.

Furthermore, I made no mention of wanting all weapons to be altered, simply for them to buff the Guardian's shield and/or class in general should they keep this game mechanic in.

Actually you did. Saying you want the bug to stay = changing all weapons since all weapons are affected by the bug.