Spiral Knights - This game is bad.

This game is bad.

213 replies [Last post]

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 11:38

#51

Luguiru

Luguirufaec.joj

"please keep the text walls to a bare minimum"

I was going to do that yesterday, but since you asked so nicely I will instead do this.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 13:42

#52

Sgt-Brownie

@Spaghetti-Knight

I'm sorry, but if you have a bone to pick with a game I'd pick SMNC over this.
Why I would take that game is another story and overall not part of this thread, so I'm going to re-butte most of your arguments. I'm not gonna lie; some are true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes the game god-awfully bad, or at least nowhere as bad as SMNC... god I hate that game.

Nevertheless, here it is.

1) Yes, so 90% of LD is filled with Skolver clones. While I agree it's extremely cheap and not really skillful -not to mention the amount of clones in each team can make or break the game for them, it's legitimate. Everything they did from getting a Snarble Barb to a Full Skolver Set with 2 Penta-Heart/True Love Trinkets and a BTB -with a couple of good UVs on everything if they have the resources- is 100% legit. Yes, they may have spent easily more than a hundred dollars/euros for most, if not all of this, but they did it without cheating. It isn't given to anyone to spend so much for so little In Real Life, but it's there, OOO made it so everyone can makes the most out of it.

Also they may look like Gods, but they aren't. Not too far from it, but not too close either. Alot of these clones just go and mash the first strike; the dumber ones even do the full combo. Despite the decent AoE the FF/BTB has going for the first hit, most don't know how to avoid hits by themselves and rely heavily -and I mean HEAVILY- on the Striker Dash in order to do so. This leaves them VERY vulnerable and even more predictable when they wasted all their dash fuel. The only thing any Striker has to go for is his Dash. Make them waste all their fuel and they'll be no more than Recons without any Cloak left, or Guardians with their Shield broken. Play conservatively when they're blazing through the field, then go all-out when they're walking regularly. Be careful the better ones actually try to conserve as much Dash as possible, though.

As for T1 LD and the Hammer. I'm gonna say this real clear. In every game involving fighting another player via Multiplayer is going to have a better weapon than every other, and then there's the one that just rapes everything in sight with no regard for balancing. It's in TF2. It's in CS. It's also in SK. I understand your pain, but you must understand that even for an OP weapon there is a strategy against it. Learn it.

Finally, for Blast Network. It's sad to see it being so underplayed yes, but if you look closely there are plenty of people who still play it and have mastered all there is about it.

2) Repetition is an aspect of every RPG that has ever existed. Grinding and Farming are the main reasons why Repetition in RPG exists, yet you cannot not have grinding and farming in an RPG. Here's a basic rule of thumb in an RPG: You cannot complete everything in an RPG in one straight shot like you can in Super Mario Bros, or Sonic The Hedgehog. It takes time, and some of that time will be used in Grinding and Farming so it makes your run through the game much easier.

3) Speaking of RPGs. Do you remember the times where you accidentally over-leveled too much to the point you could kill anything really easily? Well it's the same here, but in a more different way. The only reason why Fiends are hard is because there aren't a lot of 5* weapons that can kill them in one fell swoop and/or lock them down as they can do nothing against it. You want wolvers to be mildly challenging? Try T3 wolvers with 3* weapons on the last few floors of the Clockworks, it'll be much less easy, even with piercing weapons.

4) I'm gonna try to point this out quickly. SK is NOT Pay2Win. Pay to Win means you have to Pay in order to reach Endgame. This is Pay2Rush; in other words, Pay to reach Endgame FASTER than normal. This means this is nothing like Pay2Win; you CAN win without paying ONE cent. Yes, the Energy System has its flaws, with mist replenishing slightly slower than it should -In My Opinion- and a market entirely controlled by the Community -which can lead to ridiculously high CE Prices- but even then Repetition comes back into mind. Would you replay the best place to grind for Crowns all the time if you were given the opportunity? No. You'd get bored eventually and leave it for newt time. In a way, the Energy System depicts that same mindset, albeit more limited.

Phew. There, I'm done.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 13:25

#53

Thenewteddy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Criticism
P2W does refer to "Pay 2 Rush" systems.

Also this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_massively_multiplayer_online_g...
115 games use a variant of the P2W system, 18 do not.
if you REALLY hate P2W that much, here is a list of 18 games that do not use it.

Personally, I love P2W and would not play a game without it.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 13:51

#54

Nexafor

A few words

I suggest you take a few days off the game, concentrate on other things until you cool down.
The feeling inside of deep burning hatred because of the stupidity and greed of others, is a feeling I know well, yet you must not let it consume or degrade you to play on its level. Stand above it.
For we are not your enemies, but merely players just like you, who want nothing more than a moment of distraction and pleasure out of this game.
We cannot directly influence anyone rather than ourselves. Even if I or someone else where to make a massive 5000+ dollar donation I doubt it will be acknowledged. And the sooner you accept the way things like this function, the sooner things will flow easier, atleast in the mind. The first step of winning a battle is understanding its conditions, its strenghts, weaknesses and acknowledging them for what they are(both ingame and in real life).
Voicing opinion is good, but try to voice them as accurate and concentrated bursts, short but powerfull, rather than massive walls of hit/miss.
The more precise and solid your hit is the lower the chace is of a miss.
And one day that hit will be a hit of victory :).

A break will do you good :3.
A fine day to you Sir.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:13

#55

Spaghetti-Knight

Wall of replies incoming.

@Griseolar
The game is objectively bad, but I like it doe being fun. But fun doesn't excuse it's flaws. lrn2readcomprehension

@Sir-Tuddle
Two piles of turd doesn't make it into a better one, just bigger. If the problem is being stale, then add more varied content. There's a lot of suggestions about it as I've seen.

@Seiran
Two equally skilled players, one with just a toothpick, skolver and some gun, and the other with 2 penta-hearts, max asi weapons and max resistance suit. Who will win? Sure, gear isn't everything on this PvP, but it definitely helps a lot.

And even for a starter is easy, not much after being familiar with the harder patterns of the enemies.

And I understand that 3rings needs to make the dosh, but many people find the energy thing abusive, and some even stop playing because of that. Cosmetics for cash is a much better solution.

@Thimol
Lel, this guy thinks it's not true.

@Thinslayer
TL;DR: SK is part of business, energy system is part of everything and it's what gives OOO money, some most-likely copy-pasta from wikipedia, "if u don't like it, leave it" is a legit answer, stop using CE if you want it be cheaper and use only mist instead. (that's how I understood)

1st, you can't progress without actually buying CE, specially when you're heading to tier 3. 2nd, those kind of answers are the most blatantly [silly] of all. And 3rd, it would work better if OOO actually allowed players to progress without the need of CE, while at the same time, removing the elevator costs. Since you no longer will need the CE for crafting if applied, the CE prices can go up as much as it can, and not a single care will be given. Of course, players will still be able to purchase CE to skip the grind.

"You don't have to use purchasable energy to play"
Maybe for an hour, but after that you can have fun sitting on a corner. And you DO need such energy in order to progress, no matter what.

For the rest, I'm glad you agree, but yeah, it used to be somewhat harder, but nowadays it's just plain easy to face any enemy.

@Vinnydime
I have yet to see a proper fix on lockdown. And what if there are no more players to sell such CE? Where you will be getting it then, since it will take an infinite ammout of grinding to get it from the trade?

I don't even like warcraft.

And the 3rd paragraph only goes for fiends, specially greavers, since they pretty much molest gunners and bombers, but still easily beatable with swords. Anything else is just about as easy.

@Darkbrady
And yet it's the only thing you reply at. You're the one who doesn't seem to know what you're saying.

@Broxaim
P2W doesn't always imply a cash shop showing off shiny, powerful items for kids with their mother's credit card. Punch, for example, allows to upgrade weapons by UVS. the thing is, those with more monetary power can have more rolls, which means a better chance obtaining something that makes the weapon powerful (ASI mostly). And that's p2w is about - people with money can have better items than people who don't.

And I'm surprised you made a whole grame through of monopoly, because I sure was bored as hell when I played it with my famliy after several hours. And poker is more about the excitement of gambling and luck, thing that Spiral Knights isn't (maybe except for Punch, maybe).

Evil is evil, although the grind is more of a side effect of their energy thing. It's still bad though.

WE HAVE TO APPEAL TO THE WIDER AUDIENCE AMIRITE? This is the problem with games today, people want instant gratification, rather than actual challenge. I didn't said i wanted the difficulty to be insanely hard, but I do want some more challenge when I'm taking trips around the clockworks.

And I already told a million times that the problem is for the game being too dependent for CE, and many of new players hate that. And if you ask me, the only thing i'd put as cash only would be cosmetics. Anything else is obtainable either with CE or crowns, while clearly CE being the easiest way.

Here's my opinion, more "educated", constructive opinion. Happy now?

@Ubernerd
Yeah, no.

@Canozo
Never said it wasn't fun, in fact that's why I like it, but it doesn't justify this stupid abusive system.
And t2 lockdown is poorman's t3 lockdown.

@Princeberton
I said they would, not they do. Learn to read comprehension.

@Fehzor
From the wiki: "Players that paid for special items subsequently become better at a multiplayer game than those who did not purchase the same items, then it will not be as enjoyable as other games since players who paid more money are more successful than those who simply rely on skill. These games are known as "Pay-to-Win" (often abbreviated P2W)". This is the real definition of P2W.

And I do see the good on this game, it just happens the bad being so noticeable and could be easily fixed without breaking the game. You people yet don't see that. Seriously...

@Derpules
No, I'd like to read them, please post it if you don't mind, unless of course any of these answers re-rebutts you off.

@Toxicblade
I agree but in order to progress, you need CE. CE is only obtainable if anyone buys it with cash and sells it. If there are no people selling CE, you'll be stuck on progression at tier 2. That's the worst thing it can happen really. Cash currency should never interfere with gameplay.

@Aumir
Not that I didn't wanted to, but if you really want an answer most of them affect gameplay itself. And it shouldn't really.

And I'm too tired to reply to others... I will do that tomorrow, if more walls of text don't show up...

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 15:58

#56

Thenewteddy

> sad he didn't get a reply

> sad he didn't get a reply :(

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:00

#57

Thenewteddy

=^.^= yeay a reply!

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:05

#58

Aumir

Maybe I didn't get a reply because I sort of agree but try to deal with it...?
...
Time to get candy ingame!

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:11

#59

Ghret

Why not? I'll go in.

"And I do see the good on this game, it just happens the bad being so noticeable and could be easily fixed without breaking the game. You people yet don't see that. Seriously..."

Would be oh so kind as to enlighten us, less intelligent, people as to how this can be achieved?

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:23

#60

Spaghetti-Knight

Will do Ghret.

- Remove the elevator costs and allow to craft stuff, at very least the equipment you use on battle with crowns aswell with CE,
- Make (almost) everything that is purely cosmetic purchasable with CE only.

That way:
- You can play without the energy restriction...
- ...without worrying about the problem of CE's price inflating, ...
- ...while preventing the game from being any more p2w...
- ...and still allowing OOO getting money from the CE people will still buy to get cosmetics and skip grinding.

Not to mention that with some advertising about how improved the game would be would also attract more players by spreading the word. Hell, I know a website where everyone would play it if OOO removed the damn elevator thing.

is it really that hard to think about it?

EDIT: Aumir, I added a small reply on the main post.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:28

#61

Thenewteddy

The main complaints about P2W

The main complaints about P2W are multiplayer based. Rather than T1, T2, T3, perhaps we should have 6 Tiers. I was getting killed with 1 shot in early T2 whereas now I can go an entire LD game being killed only one or two times. The only difference is a single star in my gear.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 16:40

#62

Ghret

Your idea works on one assumption

That the game would be able to support itself entirely on cosmetic purchases. Now I'm not saying that this is impossible - just look at TF2 - but what I am saying is that we have no hard data on how much CE is currently spent on the Elevators, and how much is spent on cosmetics i.e. spent opening Lockboxes.

Now, what if most of the CE is spent on elevators, with only a small - but not negligible - percentage spent on Cosmetics, what then?

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 17:06

#63

Luguiru

"P2W doesn't always imply a cash shop showing off shiny, powerful items for kids with their mother's credit card. Punch, for example, allows to upgrade weapons by UVS. the thing is, those with more monetary power can have more rolls, which means a better chance obtaining something that makes the weapon powerful (ASI mostly). And that's p2w is about - people with money can have better items than people who don't."

Where did they get the crowns? Credit card from mommy? You just said otherwise, meaning they earned those crowns from playing the game or selling stuff without spending real dollars. Pay refers to real money, not game money. Silly.

"From the wiki: "Players that paid for special items subsequently become better at a multiplayer game than those who did not purchase the same items, then it will not be as enjoyable as other games since players who paid more money are more successful than those who simply rely on skill. These games are known as "Pay-to-Win" (often abbreviated P2W)". This is the real definition of P2W."

You got that from this which got it from this which you claim to be the "real definition". Because this is also serious information everyone should know.

Since you seem so trusting with what random people with no credibility on the topic think even though they would have to actually play this specific game to be able to judge whether this specific game is pay to win, here is my definition:

By paying real money the premium player gains access to exclusive content which is absolutely impossible for non-premium players to partake in. At all. Whatsoever. Here are some examples, a few relevant to this game:

Premium service which gives premium players items which can only be obtained by spending real money for subscribing; non-premium players have to purchase to obtain the same items
Areas of the game have restricted access and may only be experienced by paying (expansion missions)
A level/tier cap for non-premium players (imagine if only premium accounts are allowed to have 4*+ equipment)
Exclusive items which give an unfair advantage to premium players over non-premium players which can only be obtained through paying (expansion weapons if they were overpowered)
Restricting certain features of the game such as trading, obtaining certain items, doing certain activities, et cetera (imagine not being able to trade unless your account is premium, no 4*+ materials unless premium, no playing Krogmo minigames unless premium, etc.)

Now here are a few things that make a game not pay to win:

Premium packages (energy packs) do not include equipment usable in combat (imagine buying a $20 energy pack and getting a DAvenger with it)
At least 80% of the game (equipment, enemies, areas; excludes cosmetics which have no affect on gaming experience) is completely accessible to all players (the only thing in the game which goes against this is the expansion which is tiny) and the amount not accessible to all players is not the entirety of the highest level area (danger missions, T3)
If a stamina/energy system is present it regenerates in real time and there is no premium item which increases the regeneration rate (mist regenerates over time slowly but infinitely over time)
All players can reach the highest level without paying out of their wallets eventually (CE can still be bought from other players using crowns obtained through non-premium gameplay)

Now give me a hug.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 17:37

#64

Skyguarder

Do you hate the game just because you have no money?

Spiral knights was not meant for everybody for life. It was meant to users that like it and tried it. You don't like it? Ok, then you can make Spaghetti Knights as a new game. Let me help you make the game.

-Spaghetti knights, where everyone is a spaghetti
-The energy is replaced by sauce
-Reserved energy is meatballs with sauce
-The guns will shoot hot sauce
-Bombs will splash sauce
-Swords will now be forks
-There will be bosses like the Spaghetti king, spagduke, the sauce twins and the spaghelax
-The land will be a pile of solid sauce
-Energy is now free just by putting sauce in your mouth
-Expansions will be replaced by the spaghetti land
-Prestige points will now become spaghetti pieces
-Arcade, will now have treasure full of sauce

There is your new game. Enjoy creating it

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 17:37

#65

Broxaim

@Spaghetti

Better than before, however

'And that's p2w is about - people with money can have better items than people who don't.'

nothing else, whether UVs or toothpicks or skolver gear, is restricted to paying players only.
all your talk about UVs, is that people who pay get it faster, someone who is playing for free has access to all those, it just takes them a lot more TIME to get those items.
that doesn't make it pay to win.

I've played games where it's free to play, but paying players have access to items which are just statistically better than what a free player has access to.
So no matter how much TIME you throw at the game you will be inferior to someone who pays.
That's pay to win.

Whether the game is too dependent on CE is subjective, I personally don't think it is.
There are heaps of people who can enjoy this game, without the need to spend money on CE.
But from what you've said, I see you don't have much of an attention span or haven't worked hard for many things.
Would you fall into the category of these 'instant gratification' people? who don't deal well with the challenge that is in patiently waiting for something?
So ideally you want a game that is both easy and hard, and free yet the developers get paid from money that falls from the sky?

If 3 rings implemented these things.
the game would cease to exist very quickly.
there would be no way to support the servers and staff they have on hand.
no way to develop new content
so all the players will leave
The reason why there are pressures for you to buy CE implemented into the game is to help meet their bottom line.

This isn't Miley Cyrus. You can't have the best of both worlds.

Also
@Fehzor look up the word 'hypocrisy'. I doesn't mean double-standards. It means to lie or deceive or pretend (that you are morally better).
I don't think anything Spaghetti did was hypocritical. If he said something like, 'I read and consider all the posts' and doesn't. Then that would be hypocrisy.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 18:11

#66

Gesalt

look up the word 'hypocrisy'.

look up the word 'hypocrisy'. I doesn't mean double-standards. It means to lie or deceive or pretend (that you are morally better).

Close, but that is incorrect. The definition of hypocrisy has nothing to do with believing one is "morally better," but that one claims to believe or act on a virtue or moral they do not have or frequently violate. To put it in another way, someone saying "do as I say, not as I do" would be a statement of hypocrisy.

'I read and consider all the posts' and doesn't. Then that would be hypocrisy.

Uh... No. That would just be a lie.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 18:12

#67

Aumir

Hmm

I see OP believes in what I think should be done with this game, the whole no elevator cost, craft with mats and crowns only. But many people would get pissed at the moment about it... maybe in the future it could be viable, but right now it is a bit dangerous. Or not, but companies don't take risks lately, and OOO is also small.

But about the "this game isn't p2w"... until OCH is purchasable with CE or crowns here in non-Asian servers, and not having to use Steam or else, this game still has p2w features, exclusive strong weapons - Dark Retribution had to be nerfed (a damaging bomb? omg nerf, cant let supass mine flouris and blitz) and still is really devastating (pierces gremlin and knight shields) and hammers 99% instakill in tier 1 lockdown. Not to mention the whole "pay wall to access a relevant story mission". Yes, one of the people that follow Cradle's current Arquitect is to me a "relevant story mission".

Also, it is truly debatable that Punch isn't p2w... I dunno but I don't tend to have 225000 Crowns always, while promo boxes could give out 3 Variant Tickets etc, as well as some people who invested lots of money (and some ruined themselves without result!) to get Max defense equipment (30%+ per piece IS quite a difference, not to mention status inmunities) ...maybe the only defense is that it is a "gamble" system, but to me it compares to other MMOs that have "box with ultimate weapon+1 at 1%": it is the same thing.

Again, this game isn't ruined by p2w at all, but it DOES have some. Also, as PvP is quite irrelevant and barebones and we all get Krogmo coins anyway, it doesn't really matter: if you play SK for its PvP, you are really missing out on other games that would entertain you much more! Well, nothing bad on playing PvP here... but youknowwhatImean, I think.
...
Which reminds me I should try grinding K's someday, as stun bug is nearing death and a Stagger Storm would be nice to have.

Oh, and I see many games that live perfectly fine with revenue only through costumes, experience potions etc without shortening gameplay time... btw also our "experience potions" are the Heat Amplifiers > Currently on sale on Supply Depot!

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 19:00

#68

Doom-Dude

@Spaghetti-Knight

This will help keep you happy:
http://gifura.orzhk.org/src/1332235315120.swf

Enjoy the link and make sure your volume is up or else its no fun :(

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 19:05

#69

Kalaina-Elderfall

Basically

Basically, you either have a job and you spend about half of what you make one day at work to get more in-game currency than you need for the entire time you're playing the game, or you don't have a job and therefore you have a large amount of time with which to grind to make up for your lack of real life money. People spend money buying video games all the time, and the Spiral Knights prices are reasonable in dollars per hour.

Spiral Knights has a lot of issues, most notably the fact that most of the gear is underpowered, but it's fun and we play it in spite of the flaws. People complaining about the core underlying mechanic of energy can never really be taken seriously because it is basically the strongest monetary model for a game that I've ever encountered.

As for the other points, yes Lockdown is terrible. It needs some fixes. The lack of difficulty of the game isn't a problem for me, though; sure, I never encounter a real challenge, but who says I want one? It's an MMORPG, not a challenge-intensive genre. If I wanted stuff to kill me I'd be playing a different game.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 19:33

#70

Archduke-Of-Stupid

Oh c'mon.

Wow. Each game has a different way of obtaining money. You wouldn't wanna spend 2~~ years/months to create a game for no reason, right?
Also, SEGA is with this game. 'Nuff said. Don't like it? Tell me more about how I'm suddenly a P2W butthurt jerk.
You're digging your own grave.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 21:24

#71

Gesalt

Also, SEGA is with this game.

Also, SEGA is with this game. 'Nuff said.

Um... I don't think you should be listing SEGA publishing Spiral Knights as a positive aspect on the topic of finances.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 21:40

#72

Feline-Grenadier

Wait a second...

Spaghetti knight, did you just contradict yourself?

"This is the problem with games today, people want instant gratification, rather than actual challenge."

"- It's easy 80% of the time (only fiends and sometimes the mecha-knights seem to actually show some challenge), and no, shadow lairs and danger missions are NOT actual excuses or good attempts to properly fix this. Sure lower tiers need to be easier for the newbies, but even on tier 3 it's bloody easy for them if they're not full degenerates."

O.O

BTW are you starting a flame thread? I could really just bash this to kingdom come any second now... :D

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 22:49

#73

Spookington

Oh lahwdy, LAHWDY!

Jeebus, you guys sure are ravenous. I've got to hand it to spaghetti-knight, this must have taken some balls or a whole lotta' angst to post in the first place.

I do agree on the points on Lockdown and T3 clockworks. Everything is so easy until OMGFIENDZ! ... OP lil' bastards.

Also a little conflicted on CE in this game. I like the system - I don't usually play for long, and like how the mist system prevents poopsocking. However, I can imagine that for new players trying to get T3 equipment that the task of doing so is as hard as a priest at a playground. I'm rather glad I got in as soon as this game went to steam so I could make all my stuff before the CE price went through the roof.

Not really feeling up to make a whole-hearted contribution in either attacking or defending the OP, but while I think SK has done many things right, I think he still has a point on some of the things he brought up - even if they have been done to death.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 23:06

#74

Addy

I love how the general

I love how the general consensus of f2p players is that all paying players are super rich and greedy. $10 a month does not get you very far! :(

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 00:00

#75

Griseolar

Lol

"The game is objectively bad, but I like it doe being fun. But fun doesn't excuse it's flaws. lrn2readcomprehension"
Flaws that numerous other people have already attempted to propose changes for such as yours. Changes that have been disproved because many others believed that it will not work, but I'm sorry for assuming you knew how to use the search bar.

Still doesn't change the "I'm bashing this game even though I find it fun!" vibe that you're giving off though.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 02:49

#76

Xxpapaya

The papaya is ticked off

*Sighs*, another person complaining about the usual. Time to pull out some counter-arguements
"The PvP is rubbish. 90% of lockdown is consisted of p2w toothpick skolverfest, and the bomberman copy is pretty much dead. "
First of all, how do people using the flourish line make it rubbish? I don't see the problem with it, I actually find it kind of funny, even though I do get sliced up myself (I'm not much of a swordsman). I've seen quite a few bombers and gunners as well.
One reason why some people don't play Blast Network is because of lag (for me anyways), it just doesn't make it too comfortable. Its not that its a bad copy of bomberman, its just a bit too demanding on their computers for some people .

"It gets repetitive sometimes."
Find something new to do, full stop

"It's easy 80% of the time (only fiends and sometimes the mecha-knights seem to actually show some challenge), and no, shadow lairs and danger missions are NOT actual excuses or good attempts to properly fix this. Sure lower tiers need to be easier for the newbies, but even on tier 3 it's bloody easy for them if they're not full degenerates."

That usually only applies with skilled people or ones with a good connection. Last time I did a danger mission (we were on T3, all of us had piercing weapons and shadow defense, and full 5* gear), we died within the first 3 minutes. Explain that

Almost EVERYTHING revolves around cash currency known as energy. You want to actually play the game? You need energy. You want to craft some new shiny helmet? You need energy. What, no energy? "Too bad, go sit on a corner or give us some greenies" - OOO

I say this to nearly everyone who complains about energy, first of all. You want to play right? How long does it take for energy to regenerate? 22 hours. 1 run usually consumes about 40-50 energy (regarding you don't revive and be foolhardy). It also takes about an our according to my experience (and my friends). So 2 runs will take you about 2 hours and leave you with 10 energy-ish. If you play for more than 2 hours in a row, go out and actually do something, go for a walk, a run, a swim. Go and admire nature. Seriously

One more thing, why aren't you posting anymore? Have we overwhelmed you with our arguments?

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 03:10

#77

Sir-Tuddle

It's not that the gameplay is

It's not that the gameplay is bad or anything, but too much of anything gets really old. Maybe limiter wasn't the best word, pace keeper works a lot better for what I'm saying.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 04:30

#78

Jakmad

Boop

I find it funny how you're trying to press what has already been proved a ... flawed? No, more like badly worded ... argument to what is effectively a group of intelligent (touch wood) group of people. I'm not going to bother arguing one way or another. After all, opinions are just like arseholes, everybody's got one.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 11:57

#79

Canine-Vladmir

Believe it or not.

But this is the shortest comment here.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 19:34

#80

Zephyrgon

No it's not

This is.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 19:59

#81

Skyguarder

Nope

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 20:02

#82

Willkilla

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 20:03

#83

Willkilla

None

2 letters less

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 20:42

#84

Grittle

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 20:52

#85

Willkilla

Random

Why do people post criticisms about sk. OOO aren't going to listen because want to make money . They post special Offers randomly to encorage people buying ce.The elevator thing where you have to pay 10 energy is just annoying ,you only get to get 10 levels deeper or buy ce and go deeper. This game has a medium amount of repetitive gameplay. Getting loads of tokens requires you to replay the mission over and over again until you have enough. I play this game until I get bored of it then don't play it for a long time ,then play it again when I am bored. Ce is a biggest flaw about this game. Seriously everything uses ce. Eg.crafting ,the elevator, buying keys, unbinding.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 20:58

#86

Linktheninja

Hey, lets rant about how bad

Hey, lets rant about how bad a game is in front of the whole community, whats the worst that could happen?

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 21:20

#87

Willkilla

Nothing

Nothing bad is going to happen. LoL!

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 21:46

#88

Willkilla

Btw

This game is broken and can't be fixed!!!!!!

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 21:59

#89

Xxpapaya

The papaya is really ticked off

@Willkilla If the game is "broken" then get out of the forums please, if you think the game is bad, then get out. You aren't supporting your own side of your argument, in fact you are doing quite the opposite

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 22:07

#90

Willkilla

How?

Tell me how?

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 22:09

#91

Willkilla

How am I doing opposite? Wait

How am I doing opposite?
Wait you don know.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 22:12

#92

Willkilla

Broken

When I say " this game is broken" I mean you cant fix the flaws about this game.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 22:26

#93

Xxpapaya

The papaya replies

First of all Willkilla, please put everything you currently want to say into just one post unless its a wall of text. Anyways, by staying on the forums and commenting/posting you aren't supporting your side of the argument. This is because you are saying that "the game sucks, etc ,etc ,etc", but by staying on the message you are sending is "I don't like the game, it sucks, I hate it, but I like playing and commenting and making other people miserable". For an example: Lets say you hate green tea, and you like red tea. By constantly drinking green tea and avoiding red tea the message you are sending is "I like green tea".

"When I say " this game is broken" I mean you cant fix the flaws about this game."
In that case everything in the world is broken, since everything has its flaws. The oil crisis, global warming, etc In reality, nothing in the world is "fixable" because every time you "fix" something, another problem will occur. For an example: Solar Panels help make energy without burning fossil fuel, but it takes a lot of water to make the panels themselves.
That way you are fixing one aspect of the problem, but only opening the door to another

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 23:02

#94

Shidara

lolp2w

If this game truly was P2W, then I'd be one OP bastard considering the amount of money I've dumped into this on a whim. And yet, there are people in here that haven't spent a dime and easily made ten times the amount of value in equipment that I currently possess. Thing is, there are only two items that you have to spend money in order to obtain, and this only applies to non-Steam users (because they can use the trading function to trade it,) and they are the rocket hammers and dark bombs, of which, from a PvP perspective only the hammer is worth looking at unless you like annoying people with interrupting orbs. The rest is Pay-to-Rush. Anything I own you can get without spending a dime by either grinding, having dumb luck or marketing skills, or a combination of the aforementioned. Were there strict Pay-to-Get equipment in the game that gave me a clear advantage over what non-paying players can get then yes, that'd be considered Pay-to-Win, and I would most likely have it.

Do I have anything that free players cannot get? No. Are there free players that have even better items than I? Yes.
Conclusion: Even though you can dump money into the game, there is nothing you can get that free players cannot. You pay to get ahead. Doesn't mean they won't catch up to you.

Apparently I made a derp and forgot to click 'Save' and just left it for what, a day and a half?
Shidara shrugs.

Fri, 10/26/2012 - 23:04

#95

Dead-Bard

Small counterargument.

You like the game? Then you should pay something, even just to show your support for it, an elevator pass is just 6$/4,50€.

You don't like the game? You stop playing it.

You like the game but you can't pay for it? You can still play it from start to finish, be glad you can do that.

Nothing is free in this world babe.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 00:59

#96

Feline-Grenadier

this thing is f2p really...

When you get down to the basics of the CE economy, it's really OOO saying:

"Oh, you wanna play? Sure, we'll just take this guy's $$$, convert it to CE, and then give it to you guys. The only thing you have to do is play. Sounds good?"

So enjoy the game!

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 01:03

#97

Derpules

^Yup.

Someone needs to pay, but so long as it's not you, who cares? There are people who are happy to pay $ in order to get CE, and some of those people are happy to sell that CE for cr. So if you're one of the people who is dead set against paying $, that's great: spend your cr and make both yourself and that other group of people happy.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 01:05

#98

Xxpapaya

The papaya replies to Vinnydime

Same thing all other games with "special currencies", or the ones where you have to pay to play are saying........................

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 04:51

#99

Thenewteddy

Not sure how many "active"

Not sure how many "active" players this game has, but, let me guess that it's 500,000 (could be way off)

If 10% of that, 50,000 people, were to take out their cell phone and put in $2 a month in CE, the price of CE in the market would go down.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 05:18

#100

Spaghetti-Knight

A few more replies.

@Sgt-Brownie
1) It's not exactly cheating, but those with more monetary power can have bigger advantages over the ones who only relies on skill. That's why I said about being p2w thing, although anyone is capable of obtaining such advantages (they do need a lot of crowns to get the stuff though).

And yes, that's a pretty alright strategy, I'll admit that, but that extra health can still save their buttocks.

The problem of having one weapon superior to all others is that everyone will eventually pick that one, and what makes it worse, the hammer is exclusive content. TF2's vanilla weapons are usually better than the other ones and yes, if there's something I hate about cs is the goddamn AWP and there's little you can do when anyone can 1shot you with it...

2) Except that I don't think this is really a RPG, it's more of a dungeon crawler, but even so, you have a point about grinding/farming being part of the game, HOWEVER, as I mentioned a few times, it should be kept to a MINIMUM. And honestly, there's not much to do in here asides from making fancy characters and beating up monsters on dungeons.

3) And I probably forgot to mention, but even a tier 3 "freshman" could beat it with fair ease. Fiends are hard because they are faster and swifter than most other enemies, not because of there having no weapons to beat them as easily. Using inferior weapons is just only increasing artificial difficulty, rather than making it legitimately challenging.

4) P2rush is different from p2w. One allows people with real cash to reach faster endgame than f2pers, but doesn't make them really better than the 2nd. p2w is about the opposite. And yes, player based market on a game that's very dependent on energy is not really as a good idea as people might believe, but it doesn't mean making the game less dependent on the energy will make the game less boring. People grind so they can obtain the stuff to progress o the game, whenever it has elevator costs or not. The difference is that without such elevators' cost, people will feel more free to explore the clockworks rather than strictly using the whole tank in farming, which can lessen the feel of being repetitive. Still, more varied gameplay content is always the best solution for this case.

@Nexafor
I'm sorry, but I will not let go a clear flaw on the game that spoils the game over a bunch of optimistic people who are blind with the bright sides of it. And I'm sorry if this offended many of you, but it's the truth. I even saw a guy or two telling that the energy limitation is a good feature. That's how deluded a person can be.

@Ghret
Except most of the energy used on elevators comes from mist, which it takes 1 day to recharge. Most energy actually is spend on weapon crafting/upgrades, I believe. I did mention that it's best if we have crafting possible by usual energy and also just using crowns, and honestly, it's not as bad as one person might think. I'll explain further details if you wish so.

@Luguiru
It's true you can get crowns by just playing the game, but really, people do spend mamma credit card's money on CE, which then sells it for CE and gets the crowns for punching. And the CE thing is the only positive thing on it before you mention that. Even so, as i mentioned above, people with monetary power have more advantage over those who don't.

And you are comparing wikipedia with a randumb word on BLOODY URBAN DICTIONARY. And I don't need to go far to find the same definition of p2w on more "official" webistes, really.

About that list:
1-1 - That is true for p2w, but only if the items allowed the p2per to be better than a f2p. Cosmetics is not p2w for example. A golden leviathan is not a much of a good idea though, since this game doesn't have level restrictions for the equipment, although it's not any better than the normal one.
1-2 - p2p, not p2w.
1-3 - p2p.
1-4 - Not really p2w, but it's the case of this game, and it's implemented very subtly.
1-5 - Trading isn't p2w, it only allows to make the life easier to obtain stuff you want, but it doesn't really make anyone better. Only doing certain activities is rather p2p, unless it allows to obtain powerful but exclusive stuff. If those certain items are better than the other ones, then yes, p2w.

2-1 - I agree, but only because there are no equipment level restrictions for lower tiers.
2-2 - If you think about it, without people selling energy, no-one would be capable of passing through tier 3 , much least accessing shadow lair (SL equipment isn't a big deal there anyways); it's rather p2p than p2w though. OCH is p2w for tier 1, since the hammer blows up anything there from my own experience... And danger missions can only be played once a day, without anyone inviting you.
2-3 - We have energy passes instead. You forgot about that, didn't you? Asides that. we have heat and krogmo boosters, if you even consider that p2w too, despise just being p2rush.
2-4 - Read the 1st sentence on 2-2.

And no offense, but as a personal opinion on you, I think you talk a lot for nothing special.

More replies coming soon.

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