Problem: Someone (Namely the OP) plays this game so much and has a passion to become one of those people who do nothing but play the same game forever until they die, with no breaks whatsoever.

Solution: Go play WoW.

In other words, the whole "OMG we need energy to do stuff" argument is just plain stupid. It's purpose is to PREVENT mindless zombies that only play online games, without breaks for ANYTHING. If you wanna turn into one of those people, go play something that doesn't have a leash. By implementing a system with a limit, OOO ensures that people DON'T turn into mindless zombies. If you dislike that so much, then go play something else, but don't bash the energy system for making sure that people like you, who want to destroy their lives with a GAME, don't play this thing 24/7. Also, if you get bored of doing something repeatedly, use your brain and STOP DOING IT. Read a book, play a different game, watch TV, GET A LIFE. If it's as boring as you make it out to be, you wouldn't be arguing that we should be able to do everything (which is SO boring) over and over for all time. About the LD: This is a game. If you have to win to have fun, then sucks to be you, cause you're never gonna be happy. Everyone loses, and if you wanna start a rage war over something that happens all the time (like having to PAY FOR THINGS), then go ahead. Can't wait to hear what rage thread you come up with for breathing.

This game is awesome.

Still haven't answered the other questions I posed.

Where are the developers going to get money to feed their families, and keep the servers up and running?
In your example, where the crafting gear takes crowns and not CE, each 3-5* item that is crafted is going to cost three rings money compared to how it is now. (lost earnings)

And by introducing that system, it will actually increase the cost of CE not decrease it.
As there is no 'need' to purchase CE (with money or crowns) to progress, people are just not going to buy CE, and because there's less CE in the economy, the value of CE is just going to go up. Which still doesn't solve your empty mist tank problem.

Why do you think the promo items are 'free' with CE purchases, rather than you can outright buy them with CE?
they do this so that people buy CE packs, adding CE into the economy. keeping the cost of CE down.
if they just sold new vanity sets for CE, it will just increase the demand for CE, and thus increasing the cost of CE.

I'm trying to reason with you, giving you reasons why three rings does the things the way they do.
Trying to be reasonable and share a bit about the game design with you.
But everything you have 'suggested' is not viable, because it costs three rings money, with no added benefit.

by changing the crafting to crowns, it will still take grind to get your items, but it will cost three rings money.
by removing elevator costs (elevator pass for everyone) it will quickly raise the price of CE, as crowns will enter the economy at a ridiculous rate. which will infact cause people to leave this game at a faster rate than they are now, thus costing three rings money.
by removing the pressures of buying CE, is going to directly affect their income.

there is one thing you touched on that will actually improve the game, and I know the developers are working on it too.
That is, to add more content.

@Jarfour
What you just said is so uninformed and biased, I just don't even know... what...
yes someone who has more money is better off than someone who doesn't with all other things being equal... pretty obvious..
yes someone who has more skill will beat someone who has less skill with all other things being equal.. very obvious
and YES someone who has better UVs will beat someone without them if they are equally skilled... still extremely obvious...

however, not all players have equal time, not all players have equal skill, and not all players have equal spare change.
someone who has $100 dollars but doesn't have time to play the game, to skill up to learn the game will most likely lose to someone who is less geared.
But you see... there is nothing that you can buy with that $100 that someone with more time can not earn.
I can guarantee that if my parents spent $1,000 on this game to get gear and UVed items, they would still lose to any free to play player who has gotten themselves up to 5*.
This sums it up

@Spaghetti-Knight
"Nice ad hominem"
Interesting that that's all you have to say, considering how you've been doing it in almost all your previous posts. Hypocrisy much?

"but how about justifying the flaws of the game being here rather than being fixed?"
That's the problem - what you see as a flaw would not appear as a flaw to others. Judging by all the posts by everyone in this topic, it would appear that the majority views it as just neutral, if not somewhat positive or negative (and not full-blown "THIS IS A FLAW FIX IT NAO!"), but according to you, they are all just 'mindless drones' right?

Immortuos, even if he does want nothing but attention (unlikely), there are still some excellent topics of discussion to be explored.

This game has a ton of potential, but neglecting balance, making the game artificially long (grinding, gear checks), and übernerfing Wolvers and the like so they're laughably easy enemies (not even adjusting them back for Danger Missions and Shadow Lairs)...

None of that is good from any perspective I can think of.

Let's all just talk normally without smugness or rudeness.

Seriously, both sides look like complete and utter idiots.

@ Spaghetti-Knight "tsk tsk" Still haven't told me why you made this thread and what you are trying to accomplish. No answer eh?

@Atrumvindex Your side is the third =) People who don't what these arguments to happen, I wonder how this one began? *stares at Spaghetti-Knight*

@Spaghetti-Knight No point in responding to any of your posts until you answer my question above

"Really? Do you people actually defend this? That's really sad, you know?"
My version of your quote: "Really? Do you people have to make other people miserable? That's really sad, you know?"
You are accusing me and other supporters for being "mindless drones", even if we were being a "mindless drone" is much better than being a "drone which makes other people miserable and accuses others".

"It's easy 80% of the time (only fiends and sometimes the mecha-knights seem to actually show some challenge), and no, shadow lairs and danger missions are NOT actual excuses or good attempts to properly fix this. Sure lower tiers need to be easier for the newbies, but even on tier 3 it's bloody easy for them if they're not full degenerates."
Tested your theory by doing Compound 42 (danger mission) a few hours ago. I'm guessing energy-reviving 5 times in total means that its easy? We had to leave half-way because it just ended being impossible.

" Almost EVERYTHING revolves around cash currency known as energy. You want to actually play the game? You need energy. You want to craft some new shiny helmet? You need energy. What, no energy? "Too bad, go sit on a corner or give us some greenies" - OOO.
Sounds to me like the person playing is crafting an item everyday, no duh they have no energy.

Let me put this into simple words for you. Life and time are like a river, the origin of the river is where you want to reach. But to do that you need to progress everyday, or you go downstream. If you "stay" in the same place, you still go downstream cause time will pass. Lets try to implement that into the game. "Everyday you need to progress or else you will end up whining and complaining and become another Spaghetti guy who calls people "mindless drones" and making a living by ruining other people's lives" In this case, the river is made of lava and at the opposite end of the river is a monster which manipulates your mind. The origin is relief (basically, getting that "shiny helmet" of yours)

Gonna call me a mindless drone again Spaghetti? Go ahead, at any rate its better than being the type of drone you are
If you do not answer my question (Which is why you made this thread and what are you trying to accomplish?) then it is only proof that you have lost your side of the argument. Cause every argument has sides, every side has an aim. My aim is to prove you wrong, but also help you look at things in a more appreciative manner instead of accusing people for every little mistake they make. Your aim is still a mystery to me

Interesting, but I still think you're missing the awesome.

Good to know you're totally incapable of preaching what you say. And what more can I say that hasn't already been said by many others in this topic? I'll only be repeating the same things that you're fundamentally incapable of comprehending, and you're gonna do nothing but continue calling people drones for disagreeing with your opinion. Right now the only thing people can do is try and make you see what a prick you've been in your argument, but I'm sorry for assuming you were a sensitive individual.

graveyard this.

please.

i am SO tired of seeing this in the top of GD every time i look.

this is just a thread about some spagetti kid complaining about how he can never win LD and cant afford ce.

stop complaining!!!

and by the way, dont reply anymore spagetti, beause every time you do, people dislike you more.

All the time you guys spent arguing about the Ce prices and reading posts on this thread you could of saved 15% or more on your car insurance then used that money to buy Ce <69.

"But just one thing:
"If you wanna access the "fun" stuff, you have to pay, that's how life works."
Hmm, yes go... I mean boy, that's how things work now. Be sure to pay all your hard earned money on the precious energy you'll blow away in minutes.

Btw, I don't agree with that, I mean, paying a service for something is one thing. But shoving us with all sort of ways in an attempt to milk the costumers? No thanks. Be wise on that."

You must be pretty deluded if you think the company is trying to milk the customers for every dollar they have. Yes, that's what milking implies: Sucking their pockets dry.

It hardly takes ANY energy to get that huge boost, or you could just get an e-pass, which is six dollars. 20,000 CE? 50 dollars. I'm sorry, but this isn't 1920. 50 dollars is not a lot of money.

Even if they were trying to get money out of us, then good for them. You seem to forget that they are a business. They need to make money to support themselves. Not everything in the game can be a handout. Rather than choosing the path of "playing payers have a combat advantage", they went and said "playing payers can progress faster".

If you want to use punch as an example for the people who paid getting an advantage, don't waste your breath. Most of the flourishes on the market with an ASI UV were obtained from crafting. Most Wolver gear with Piercing, shock, or stun max UV's were obtained through, you guessed it, crafting. How much energy does it take to craft one of these? 50. Can you use your mist tank for that? Why, you sure can! It's when you get into the realm of triple-max UV's and ASI-CTR VH combos that you see people going to punch. In all reality, these UV's don't make you a better player. A person with no UV can take someone down with the best UV's just by being better at the game. (Not to mention that triple-UV's are insanely expensive to get locked in perfectly, so they're highly uncommon anyway.)

"And yet I haven't seen you trying to defend the game other than insulting me. :\"
Proof that you can't read. Re-read my previous post again (or at least try to).

"I understand they're a company and they need to make the money, but I just don't like the way they do it."
And here you are suggesting things that might potentially lead to the company's ruin by attempting to drastically reduce CE demand from players. So no, you understand nothing.

"So the point stays, people who have more money have more advantage over those who don't."
So...you want everyone to be on a level playing field regardless of whether they spent money or not? That is just silly - people who spend their hard-earned money should have an advantage over people who didn't, otherwise what would be the point of spending money in the first place. This isn't the first MMO to do that, and it certainly wouldn't be the last. Go out and try and find an MMO that does not grant an advantage to P2Pers over F2Pers.

Ha! The thread keeps on going off the first page and you people are trying desperately to keep it alive, if it goes off page then let it be, stop trying to keep this argument going.

"Again, trying to force us to spend money isn't the way to go. You realize that without spending any money, you're stuck at waiting for tomorrow. And again, that's a bad thing to do to a player and many quit because of that." How are OOO and Sega forcing us to spend money? Its an optional and the energy packs are kinda saying something like this: "Its your choice if you want to buy CE or not, but if you do here's something extra to show our gratitude"

"Yes, UVs do make you a better player. I saw strikers obliterating the whole team with high speed toothpicks, fausts and penta-hearts. With my bare eyes. Sure it may take some skill, but so does the demoman's sticky bombs in TF2."
Well I saw strikes BEING obliterated by people with Gran Fausts and Mist Bombs...............

"So the point stays, people who have more money have more advantage over those who don't." Really? I have a friend who spent $100 worth on CE, and I still know much more than he does and I still die much less often...............

"Again, trying to force us to spend money isn't the way to go. You realize that without spending any money, you're stuck at waiting for tomorrow. And again, that's a bad thing to do to a player and many quit because of that."

I've posted the answer to this quite a few times and you just aren't bothered to read it. Simple answer: Since you spent 1 hour or more playing, stop playing for awhile. Go outside for a walk or something, play a music instrument if you know one, etc.

@ Spaghetti-Knight (In reply to your last post directed to me) The problems are obvious yes, but are the answers? By the looks of it, you are telling Sega and OOO to either remove energy, or stop the game. Removing energy would probably stop the game since they won't earn a profit off of it anymore, and stopping the game would cause people who did spend money on it to go berserk (not to mention the people who work as GM's, Moderators, etc as well) So its basically a lose-lose situation for you

"You took 5 energy revives?" Oh, I'm sorry that I'm not the best player in the game and I'm sorry that I had shadow weapons, and I'm sorry that my internet was running as smoothly as possible, I guess those factors don't really apply eh?

"Hope you're having fun playing for a meager 10 levels without paying money" I have and I am, and I'm having a jolly good time :P I'm not too worry about earning a profit, just having fun

"Seriously, how dense you can you possibly be? I like the game, and I AM a big fan of it, but even so I don't let my fantradness preventing me to admit the flaws in this game." How dense are you? I've given YOU the reasons why their is no point in complaining anymore and you just keep on keeping this thread alive. We get your point, but do you understand ours? HA! First you said the game is bad and now you say you are a big fan of it?! Which one is it???

This we all understand your point than just graveyard this thread so that we can finally have some peace on the forums

"People who have more money have more advantage over those who don't."

GEE, REALLY? Who would've thought that rich people have an advantage over poor people? Oh wait. THAT HAPPENS EVERYDAY. Your precious "points" are just stuff that happens in life everyday. You've been playing this game a little too long if you think "People who have more money have more advantage over those who don't" is such a breakthrough. You wanna keep playing? Loosen the wallet. Spend six bucks and get an elevator pass, for crying out loud. And before you go on with the "Oh, but that'll just go right to their scheme!", lemme just say, there are schemes EVERYWHERE. Literally. You'd be hard pressed to find any place without a scheme of some sort. And think for a little, is it really that bad of a "scheme"? You wanna have fun, they wanna get paid. You give them 6 bucks, you can play all you want and have a grand ol' time, and they make a whopping 6 dollars (Cause that can buy ANYTHING nowadays). That's 72 bucks a year. Not exactly the most cutthroat price, if you ask me. But then, what do I know? Apparently I'm "Another guy that seems to not have any self-control and depends on the energy limitation to let him know when to stop".

We all should agree in one thing.

"I LOVE FIRESTORM CITADEL RUNS"

Fair enough? :3c

The first shot in it, while we didn't (and many people still don't) know it, was the Metal Sonic and Tails Promo. People who couldn't afford CE with real money, but still wanted the promo items, bought it from the market. It made the CE price go up. More promos, more CE price increase.

So much wrong. For one, Promotions make the price for Crystal Energy go DOWN due to the influx of Crystal Energy being injected into the system. "How is that true," you might ask. Well, for one, look at the effect every.single.promotion has on the prices. It always goes down. Two, the Metal Sonic and Tails Promotion was not the first Promotion to require a real money purchase for the items. There have always been those that have bought said items with crowns/without making purchases. That's the way every promotion has worked since the beginning. Therefore, the notion that it "started with Sega's acquisition" is a lie. Stop trying to blame SEGA, who doesn't even develop the game, for the issues of the game itself.

The reason there hasn't been any promos lately (except the DHF which isn't really a promo, more of a Halloween special) is because the market isn't going any higher than 9k crs per 100 CE.

We just had a Promotion a month ago. Which sounds in keeping from the release of every other promotion ever.

"@Jarfour Nope, the knight who starts off with an understanding of the game and knows what to do/what to not do has the advantage. A Prototype Rocket Hammer is more useful and powerful in the hands of someone who knows how to use it than a WRH in the hands of a person who doesn't know how to use it properly."

Dear Papaya, how does a knight -start- a game with a comprehensive understanding of its mechanics and inner workings?

Your Friend,

Jarfour

Incidently, Lockdown is a very poorly designed pvp. Mark my words, unless it is radically redesigned, it will never be accepted as a legitimate E-sport. There will be no big tournaments or cuircuts with prize pools, and there will be no teams being endorsed by large companies. Also its sort of boring to watch (imo).

"@Jafour
I do not think Three Rings created Spiral Knights to start a huge teams or well have their pvp be at all an "E-Sport" with prize pools."

Don't worry, I can tell they didn't put a lot of effort into making their pvp, because if they did, these things might actually be feasible. Also,

"oh and if you wish to complain it is taking them forever..."

I don't actually think they will ever fix it, so this isn't really applicable to me.

lol i was expecting to Njthug post here since i was looking foward for this and i agree what he says. this game is really fair for everyone (except for the fact that steam users can only get DLC as F2P but i guess since OOO.... its SO BUSY with DR WHO MMo i guess we are left aside with promos and small updates...).

anyways people seems to forget what others MMo do if youre free user or premium user

F2P:
- play for limited amount of time or lvl for free
- can only play the 10% of the entire game
- can only have access to basic skills

and the list can go on. while spiral knights the only problem its the time that can take you to get 5 stars. but people also forget this GAME ISNT LONG ENOUGH, once you reach 5 stars and do everything you wanted (soloed FSC, SL, Danger missions etc whatever you wanted to do) you will be in a point that you will not know what about to do in spiral knights since you did everything. hell even if someone got the chance to get 7500 Ce and 1 elevator pass for free will see what im talking about.

this game as F2P let you do everything but limits you to depend on your Mist energy to gather crowns, to buy Ce with crowns and make you take a while because many factors but mainly the energy price. but hey sooner or later you will reach everyone. about the Uvs, well as F2P will take you more time than a P2P because f2p need to save crowns but... still the same fact as you reach 5 stars, sooner or later you will reach that point.

this game as F2P dont limit you to:
- buy premium to get access to every content to the game (except OCH DLC)
- buy premium to be able to use from 4 stars gear to 5 star gear equipment

Oh and the most important thing, you dont need to be premium to be able to log in the servers in the hours where you can find most of the players online.

there other MMO that really force you to pay so you can play on their server. just look at Dofus.

Need to be premium for:
- play the game and every content it can have
- to be able to use most powerful gear and be able to use mounts and pets (also you cant feed your pets if you are not premium so they will die if you dont feed them OH! dont forget about you can leave them in a care center but hey! you cant use it if you not re a premium).
- to have your jobs lvl 100
-etc, etc.
- to not get disconnected once server reach the most players online. you will get log off if youre not premium and will take you a lot of time to have access on the server since youre on the queue waiting to get in the server with a lot of F2P that tries to join too.

so try to compare spiral knights with other MMo that not force you to be p2p.

the only bad side i see, its since spiral got the hand of Sega, they are barely talkative with us. its a long time i see a thread of "Whats in development" and devs seems to be very apart from us. but at least that dont change the Support system that helps both F2P and P2P players. add that to the list that some MMo only give supports to P2P.

also spiral knights its a Service. thats why they have "terms of service" this a company and they give you a service: entertainment trought a game. but they dont force you to pay for the service, but you get limited with the Mist Energy, but you can get more energy trought players. maybe we can say the problem its the energy price. but seriously how many players give support to this game? they re just a few players that support the game (including myself i only buy my elevator pass to help guildies and friends and only when there is a promo. whats the matter i like to support the game ?), compared with the bunch of players that spam FSC increasing the crowns in the market. or maybe at this point why to buy Energy if we dont have such major changes in the game like major content in game that arent just a few bunch of mission and costumes?. thats the reason why im not buying energy but im buying some ele passes just for the sake to help friends, guildies or even newbs that have troubles with their mission.

Maybe i could agree that the problem its the energy market. but there isnt a reason for P2P to spent their energy in the market for crowns. also if this the model business for OOO and works for them you can bet they wouldnt change it until they see theyre having troubles with ther funds. until that dont happen we dont going to see any changes on the "energy system".

but thats my view point, i really like this system tbh, its more user friendly than any other MMo who really limits you and pushes yourself to the point you need to buy to advance.