@Khasmin: I have posted only to help the thread and Zeddy out. As I said, I could care less who you are and I love the fact that you don't know me. You are displaying how stupid you really are. Admit you made the mistake of judging me the wrong way and we can end this. Or you can continue being the ragdoll everyone is spitting on. My "friends", do you think I'm in-game right now telling them to fight for me? I barely know half these people, I may have played Lockdown with them (or they stalk me via spec mode). Dude.. honestly, let's make it 6 times now.
PSA: Your triple max skolver set is basically worthless (aka the Lockdown science megathread)
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 15:55
#152
Boom!
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 16:02
#153
.
What he is upset about is how you act like you're amazing at LD while you are not.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 16:02
#154
@Icegill
"Admit you made the mistake of judging me the wrong way and we can end this."
I'm not going to apologize for you acting like a **** to Zeddy (and by extension the community since his work benefits the community). Perhaps you're ignorant of the fact, but coming out of the blue and implying someone else is doing something wrong with any real mention of where they're potentially doing something wrong is at minimum a nuisance and more often than not a troll.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 16:06
#155
Boom!
@Arkate: I know, I'm horrible at Lockdown. :( :( :(
(Please do not get involved, I don't know you either)
@Khasmin: You cannot read. If I acted badly towards Zeddy, he can tell me himself and I will apologize. I don't need to hear it from you. I said the reason is different than what he thinks. It is not math calculated, but to prove this reason, you have to do the math. Go back to reading 101 and slap yourself 7 times (while you're in there).
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 16:17
#156
Please stahp ;_;
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 16:22
#157
@Icegill
Quoting Zeddy's post:
"I appreciate the offer, but I don't really feel like poking around in LD matches with a bunch of different defence values when I don't even know what I'm looking for. So far, none of my tests have revealed anything that contradicts my model.
I know who Icegill is, and I have no doubt he knows things about LD and its various intricacies, but, and I in no way mean to sound arrogant here, I'm not sure he knows all that I do and he could be smugly hinting at stuff I already discovered and have written about in one of my many topics I have in the wiki editors subforum for all I know.
"
He ignored your post, because, like I said, at minimum it was a useless nuisance and potentially a troll. I don't get what you don't understand.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 17:13
#158
Boom!
@Khasmin: And unlike you, I do not stalk the forum post after replying (except maybe this time) to see what he said. I replied to him already which you clearly you did not read. Slap yourself 15 times for being retarded and the biggest failure this thread has yet seen. He also did not ignore my post, he was going off what everyone else was posting about my reply.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 17:21
#159
@Icegill
He said he ignored your post... and then he ignored your post. Because he perceived it was "smug" and not very helpful. Which means he perceived it was dickish. Which is what I said. Which you haven't refuted yet.
I'm feeling good right now, so if you feel like posting the last word, go for it.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 17:26
#160
Boom!
@Khasmin: You are not him. You are Khasmin, the failure. If he has these things to say to me, he can say it. Him. Not you. I've told you this twice, if you're stupid enough to not read properly, slap yourself 20 times. Feel good about your pathetic life, go on. A cat meme isn't going to make you any better or "taking the high road" as you say.
@Thread&Zeddy: I apologize for this argument to have taken place here. I feel it is my right to reply to someone who is too much of a coward to talk in-game but feels the need to shame a name he doesn't recognize. If possible, it would be great to have this thread back into the LD science stuff.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 17:30
#161
-
Khamsin best LD plyr 2013-2020
Khamsin best forumer
Khamsin best Pve
Khamsin best
#voteforkhamsin
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 17:36
#162
I vote for Khamsinbestplayercurrentlynotactivebutstillannoyingonforums.
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 20:03
#163
Back on topic...
MOMO'S FUN FACTS-TIMATES
This applies to PVE T3 as I know nothing about PVP! Yay usefulness! Whether or not it applies in PVP is up to you to decide.
- You can approximate the amount of defense each piece of item has with this fun tip:
# of defense pips in Inventory Tooltip rounded down / 4 = amount of pips of damage reduced from that type.
Or in your Gear Stats summary menu, divide the # pips there by 2.
- For example, Skolver has ~7.5 pips of normal defense, round down to 7. Divide by 4, and you get 1.75, which is approximately the # of pips of HP you'll save against a Normal attack.
- Chaos has ~6.5 pips of normal defense, round down to 6. Divide by 4, you get 1.5 pips of HP saved against a normal attack.
- Full chaos set ~6.5 pips of normal defense, round down to 6. Divide by 2 (since it's from gear stats menu), and you get 3 pips of HP saved against a normal attack.
- High UV is approximately half a pip of HP saved, two highs = 1 pip; low UV = 1/6 pip, each step up is +1/6 pip defense
- Merc pierce = Skolver pierce + Pierce med
- Skolver normal = Black Kat Cowl normal + Normal med (less accurate approximation)
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 04:04
#164
@Momofuku
Does that apply to every depth? I've been meaning to check that for a while.
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 07:17
#165
@Zeddy
Don't know! Probably differs between T2 and T3, and may possibly vary based on difficulty (since enemies do less damage in Advanced and Normal than Elite, although I think environmental hazards deal the same damage across difficulties.)
Testing was done on d24 King of Ashes vs Wheels (Normal damage) and d24 Gauntlet vs Floor Spikes (Pierce damage).
My approximations more or less agree with your values, at least in #10; Mercurial and BKC add up to +12 pips of normal defense / 4 = 3 pips = ~120 damage, which you have as 125. Medium Normal is 2/3 that of a High (which is 1/2 pip) = 1/3 pip = +13 damage, which agrees with the difference in UV vs non UV damage you had listed.
I used Sprite Perks to test UV damage (I have access to Normal High and Pierce Med).
My values aren't pixel perfect thanks to laziness and just preferring to think in terms of pips instead of actual damage (after all, that's what you get to see on your screen instead of 1080 HP).
Also Devilites don't do equal Shadow/Normal damage so I can't test reliably how defense affects split damage type--do you know what monsters/hazards deal equal split damages?
QUESTION: If unboosted Argent Peacemaker deals 187 damage (4.67 pips) and Grey Feather set defends against 4 pips of elemental damage, would an Elem Max UV (or equivalent combination of UVs) make an unboosted AP deal 0 damage? What about 2 Elem Maxes? (1.33 pips of defense) Is there a minimum damage that a weapon must deal?
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 06:44
#166
Whoa, whoa, you're saying that the best set is BKC and a vitasuit? Besides some bonuses you miss. Perhaps mercurial and vitasuit?
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 07:08
#167
Sorry, trying to follow all of this Zeddy
From what I got from all of this is that:
1. Mixing Armor and expecting to have defense is pointless.
2. Status UVs are the best for absolutely everything and are useful on their own.
3. DEF UVs (Piercing, Elemental, Shadow) are only useful if your set (Full Skolver, Chaos, Etc.) naturally has the defense already. Both pieces must have High/Maximum resist on them to be useful, Low/Medium isn't?
4. Normal DEF is the best way to go for DEF UVs at all?
5. Health Trinkets/Armor would be better defensively than having DEF trinkets/UVs?
I have more questions, but can't remember.
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 07:37
#168
@Kathrine-Dragon
Vitasuit? I don't have time to crunch the numbers right now, but a dual-penta striker using that setup would end up with 1160 health instead of 1080. Quite possibly enough to survive another hit from various sources. However, you have to remember you're giving up the offensive benefits and status resists that other armour can give you.
Also consider that wearing something like full Divine will provide you over 40 defence against elemental and shadow sources. You would only need to survive 2 hits with that set before it'd pay off over vitasuit in terms of defence. Of course, that doesn't stack perfectly with Black Kat.
@Shadowstarkirby
1 and 2 are correct.
You're not entirely right on 3. Low and medium UVs can be useful just fine as long as you stack them on an armour that has the defence already. They will add up 6.5 points at a time.
4, of course, is only correct if you're defending against things that deal normal damage. Brandishes and GF are quite common in LD, so sure.
5. Double max defence UVs gives 52 defence. It's not like there is a health UV. If there was a health UV, it would probably be worth it over defence UVs. The trinkets gives 32 defence if you're wearing both and are not remotely worth it when you could be getting an extra 480 health.
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 08:20
#169
Ah okay, thanks a bunch for this, I remember my last question
This is off-topic of LD, but does mixing armor = no defense apply in PvE as well (BKC + Chaos Cloak)? I checked myself a few weeks ago for damage reduction wearing Chaos Cloak Elemental Max Vs. Clean Chaos Cloak and the difference was 4% (I think this was confirmed already by you and Alphappy).
Would that mean if I wore Chaos Set both with double max Elemental, you'd have an 8% Elemental damage reduction over a clean Chaos set or is there some diminishing returns of Max defenses?
Talk about disappointing if that's true.
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 08:24
#170
.
I'm almost certain defense works normally in PvE. Else, why would defense working this way in PvP be surprising in the first place?
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 08:28
#171
It probably is, I'd like a confirmation still
Though I'd like to know the significance of the defense UVs in PvE to see if it's not as bad as it seems so you could go one or the other if you wish to, budgets and all.
Thu, 01/02/2014 - 07:37
#172
@Momofuku
since enemies do less damage in Advanced and Normal than Elite in post #165
I've tested otherwise. There is an added mechanic to survive lethal damage on adv/normal that is much more likely, but the attacks still deal the same damage (most of the time). The only major difference I've noticed is everything has much lower health (except knights get the same)
High UV is approximately half a pip of HP saved, two highs = 1 pip; low UV = 1/6 pip, each step up is +1/6 pip defense in post #163
Under most circumstances, I agree. However, I did some tests with chaos and adding trinket/perks and it had some increases significantly higher. In one case, a single UV high element on chaos reduced 3.5 pips of damage. My tests with arcane sally on the exact same attack provided the 0.5 pips, as it should according to your analysis.
For heavy armor, it matters little. For weak or lower level armor in situations, the UVs seem to matter a lot more.
Edit: Chaos datapoint turned out to be an error. My data is now in agreement with Momofuku's.
Wed, 10/16/2013 - 10:25
#173
@Skepticraven
You do realize that Thwacker's spin attack deals both Elemental and Normal damage right? I only skimmed through the thread but to claim it's just the Elemental bonus from Arcane Salamander that is contributing to the reduction in damage is wrong; it's the increased Elemental and Normal defense it has over Chaos.
I haven't tested the damage difference between Normal vs Elite beyond just noticing I can stomach Trojan hits in the face a lot easier when playing KoA on Normal, but I don't know if I'm just wearing different armor or not, but I will check later and revise my statements if necessary.
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 10:29
#174
@Momofuku
If you delve deeper into that thread, you will find that the 3.5 pips number I got was from comparing "Chaos set" and "Chaos set + Ele high perk". I also clarified later in the thread that it does deal element and normal damage. Sally and Chaos difference was above 4 (which give some insight into the distribution of damage).
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 11:18
#175
Skin was showing hot night wind was blowing hey I just met u =0
A bit late to the party, but Christina and Magnus both werent so great in LD tbh seen a lot better, and innovative LMAO full Skolver or full Vog isnt innovative that is just standard cookie-cutter. Regardless we are all allowed to have our own opinions, but Khamsin you owe me 100k crowns for posting silly things on the forums again! Thanks again for donating to the Snipe Fund! <69
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 11:26
#176
@Njthug
"innovative LMAO full Skolver or full Vog isnt innovative that is just standard cookie-cutter. "
Bro... I agree wholeheartedly. Quoting myself - "They weren't innovators". In fact... Magnus was very much the opposite of an innovator, he was resistant to change, continuing to use his Sentenza in Lockdown for as long as I played.
So unfortunately I can't add to your snipe fund.
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 11:35
#177
Close your mouth dont speak just feel me closer we become =0
@Khamsin --- My bad <69 I will get you next time! Do need money for more snipes I trust in you!
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 13:07
#178
You two get a room!
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 20:28
#179
1- I feel like Khas' personal mission over the last month or so is to π!$$ off as many forumers as possible.
2- How does poison work for this? Can it drop defense below 100? What about death marks?
Tue, 10/15/2013 - 22:07
#180
@Klipik
Poison works exactly like it does. It reduces defence by 10%-25% depending on the strength, and attack power by 20%-50%. If someone has 100 defence and they get afflicted by minor poison, their defence gets reduced by 15% and their defence will end up at 85%.
I used Lockdown and sets with no piercing defence to find out how much poison reduces defence by in the first place.
Deathmark reduces all defences to 0, no matter how high or low they are.
@Skepticraven
I'll look into it. Did you use the sprite perk for elemental high to give yourself the elemental high? It could be that the sprite perk defences count for more than a regular UV does.
Wed, 10/16/2013 - 04:22
#181
@Zeddy
Yes, I was using the sprite perk.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 11:16
#182
-
Arkate is supur gud at LD. so gud dat he can seyz that icegill is super bad and assumin he has supr ego prolbem. Hes so good i've never heard of him (and unlik mr kham over here, i still actively play RLD and GvG).
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 14:46
#183
Ice isn't the best there is, by any means.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 17:50
#184
I beg to differ Klipik, and with the exception of Thrill and Bacon I've played them all.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 20:38
#185
Not 2 AM yet but I'm ready to say something controversial
I'm guessing this is an example of why split-special damage just didn't work...
To everyone arguing over whether someone is "legendary" or not in Lockdown.. this is gonna sound holier-than-thou, but I always need to give my $0.02. Beyond knowledge and gear, there is very little you can do to set yourself beyond other players. Lockdown is a slightly more complex game of checkers; you find strategies that are hard to predict while guessing what your opponent will do. Given how little depth the game has, especially with things that limit what it has to offer. I mean things like flourishes, heavy swords, switch-shooting, shield cancelling, AT, trinkets, UVs, pulsars, class imbalance, and camera angle abuse.
Imagine a Lockdown without any of that. Swordplay isn't nearly as safe and becomes high risk high reward, gunplay (mostly) emphasizes accuracy rather than spam, and money related advantages are toned down. Sounds better to me.
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 21:26
#186
^ Why not just play tic tac toe?:)
Anyway, i rocked out with the 4* Vitasuit/BKC combo recently. UV Norm high/Norm med on the two pieces. (Ep 29 + 30 on my thread)
The difference isn't game breaking, but I noticed myself living slightly longer then I should multiple times. The two extra bars of health or whatever it gives aren't vital, but can make the difference in individual battles.
Props again to Zeddy for bringing this to light. I find myself changing loadouts sometimes to defend against a certain type of damage now as opposed to splitting it and trusting the system takes that in account.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:16
#187
continuing to use his
continuing to use his Sentenza in Lockdown for as long as I played.
how is this a bad thing exactly
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 04:03
#188
Why do you always have to be so dull draycos?
If it's not 'remove Uvs' then it's 'LD has no depth', and so on..
If it really has no depth then how come people do manage to stick out from the pack?
And don't say P2W, cuz it's been proven so many times that doesn't matter.
Latency? Nah, Feller and Bacon both have a bad connection.
There is such a thing as experience and skill, wether you like it or not.
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 04:18
#189
The health % rounds down. That means if you have pentas and you're at 50%, you have 540-550 health.
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 04:33
#190
You guys are more off-topic than a politician trying to avoid a question they can't answer.
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:29
#191
@Blue I get what you're saying, but I don't mean something quite like that.
@Feyi Disagreeing with a popular opinion is fun because I get to understand why I'm wrong, or vice versa. Plus, things tend to get taken for granted, like the whole CTR-is-too-pivotal thing I ranted about a few days ago. I think that was the first time it got brought up, or at least in a very long time.
For the record, I didn't say "remove UVs", I said "rebalance UVs"... if you're implying that same topic. Otherwise, even though raw defense barely matters, status resistance and ASI definitely does. Trinkets are kinda "P2W", but with the advent of alchemy orbs, I admit I can't use that argument effectively anymore. I think it's still kinda relevant because you need to play Lockdown or shell out some crowns in order to get them... but maybe it's just my anti-Heart-Trinket bias speaking again.
I didn't say it has no depth, I'm saying it doesn't have enough depth for me to take it seriously. I'm just giving my opinion that implies I think people shouldn't be at each other's necks over it.
Latency is a factor; you can't argue that... but you can argue that it doesn't really matter too much, and you'd be right. I did say Lockdown is all about planning and prediction. I still think it deserved a mention, though. Hit me. alsoidon'tlikeoneofthem
..."you find strategies that are hard to predict while guessing what your opponent will do" ... "knowledge"... yeah, I did say I thought experience matters, didn't I? Skill is hard to say "yes" or "no" to, because it matters on what weapons you're using, IMO.
__________________________________
Moving out of the thorns and into the flowery field, at what point does raw health become more effective than defense, and vice versa?
Is there any way to tell if any of this "natural defense" affects knights in PvE?
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 10:21
#192
@Draycos
For the purposes of Lockdown, in the usual case (the case where you don't get healed unless it's getting fully healed at the health pad back at base), your defence needs to add up to the amounts of your health trinket after taking less hits than is needed to kill you.
At the moment, trinkets give 18 defence and pentas gives 240 health. You'll need to get hit 12.6 times for the defence to be worth it, and even then that would only apply for the one damage type attacking you. I think for there to be any kind of trinket balance, 5 * health trinkets should give +3 pips (120 health) and defence trinkets would need to give somewhere around 50. That would come close to making them situationally worth it.
As far as I can tell, the inherent defence doesn't exist in the clockworks. When I'm wearing dragon scale, poison and drakon's defence modifiers do nothing to the amount of damage I receive.
Sun, 10/20/2013 - 03:48
#193
My Completely Irrelevant Question (Just need it to be answered)
Zeddy,
Kat Claw Cowl +Snarbolax Coat = Shivermist Freeze Immunity in Lockdown Right? (No UVs)
Thanks!
~Tech-Knight-Die
Sun, 10/20/2013 - 03:52
#194
Yes.
Thu, 10/24/2013 - 20:43
#195
So does the chart need to be updated to include or at least note that Acheron does the same dmg as GF/DA?
Fri, 10/25/2013 - 04:43
#196
I changed the titles of "Chaos vs Acheron" to "Chaos vs Obsidian"
Wed, 01/01/2014 - 11:22
#197
Defense is useless in LD ?(or
Defense is useless in LD ?(or at least the other uvs ?) doesn't surprise me, looks like it was never meant to be played defensive. Does the 100 defense cap exist for guardians too ? And Freeze UV's+Armor that already has freeze resistance+trinkets=invincible to freeze ?(this seems to work in tier 1, probably in tier 3 too). Defense is one of the things that should be changed, but probably noone cares about it, and fixing it up for the clockworks would only make the people complain that it got easier.
Wed, 01/01/2014 - 15:26
#198
@Blitzsonic
No, you've got it a bit wrong. It's quite opposite to what you said, 100 is a minimum of defence.
Status immunity depends on status strength.
Weak immunity = 7 resistance
Moderate immunity = 9 resistance
Strong immunity might not exist but we don't quite know yet, as far as I know.
Wed, 01/01/2014 - 20:23
#199
To my knowledge, Strong
To my knowledge, Strong status resistance is impossible to achieve, or at the very least should be assumed to not exist. Dual Freeze Max on a Skolver set yields +16 on its own, Pet perks put it at +19 - after testing it both in PvE as well as PvP with myself and Momofuku, we were still being frozen by things that dealt strong Freeze (Lumber swings, whatever the ice-variant of Devilite Overtimers are, and the freeze grates on Frostbite, for example) for at least two seconds. Then any additional trinkets would yield a status resistance of at least +20 resistance, which is over twice the resistance total needed for Moderate.
I'm also fairly certain that there's a statement from the developers stating that it's impossible to resist, which also mentioned that there's a very slight chance that status-themed monsters such as Slag Walkers or Toxigels can actually be affected by the statuses they represent, but I can't seem to find it at the moment so I'll leave this open to criticism or whatever. But it would make sense since I've seen a Slag Knight be caught on fire before, and would be one of the few things OOO's kept consistent in the balancing.
Wed, 01/01/2014 - 22:00
#200
If you acquired normal
If you acquired normal maximum on, say, a vog set, what would a valiance affect you before and after?
"You started a fight on a website of a game because you hated my reputation."
I hate your reputation? Wat?
I don't recognize your 'reputation', and that's why you and your friends are butthurt.