Haha, it will be an awesome fight.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/382/profile-I-m-the...
And I edited my comment to make it a little more special, more befitting the 100th comment.
Haha, it will be an awesome fight.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/382/profile-I-m-the...
And I edited my comment to make it a little more special, more befitting the 100th comment.
@Aemicus
Ok, I'll try to answer some of the points you put there.
The one problem that I see with this is that if someone does extremely well, everyone else is probably not going to be able to get money from this.
Well that's basic PvP >.> Be better than your opponents to get rewards higher than theirs.
And the other problem is that if you get a few players doing well, the crown output could be over how much everyone paid to get in.
I realised that after I posted but there's a simple fix. Half the room gets their rewards while the other half gets nothing. In other words, you have to be better than 50% of the players you're playing with, in order to be compensated.
You said that you wanted a team game
I really don't recall that. '-'
lead to most people going striker so they can get to the hunter quickly and get those few extra hits in
Not really, actually, you get the most points off of survivor points, going striker to hit the hunter would probably get you killed.
I feel like people should be awarded for being on the winning TEAM, not just being the best player
They won't; Their reward is entirely based on their Final Score which represents their personal performance, not how much they were better than other players. Like I said, Preys don't play as a team, they fend for themselves as much as they can; that's why rewarding the winning team wouldn't be as fair as a personal rating (because they are alone, even though they are fighting for the same cause).
btw, thanks for dedicating me your Colosseum game, i feel very honored :D
@Skold-The-Drac
Was there a reward for killing the hunter?
Yep, killing hunters is worth 20 bonus points.
EDIT: Just letting you guys know I've been changing the OP a bit more, credited Aemicus, changed some stuff etc.
I'll add more to it when I decide what I should do about costs, bribes and rewards.
"Well that's basic PvP >.> Be better than your opponents to get rewards higher than theirs."
This could very easily turn into an elitist game, that's all I'm worried about.
I realised that after I posted but there's a simple fix. Half the room gets their rewards while the other half gets nothing. In other words, you have to be better than 50% of the players you're playing with, in order to be compensated.
No, I remember now, you said you didn't want people to play as a team or something like that, my bad.
Found it: In a game where no real team play is intended
They won't; Their reward is entirely based on their Final Score which represents their personal performance, not how much they were better than other players.
Ok, that works too. I'm not sure exactly how you would score it yet though, or split up the money, do you have a specific way in mind? Or should I try to write another based on your points system currently in the OP?
I proposed "Half the room gets their rewards while the other half gets nothing.", but I don't know if even this way "the crown output could be over how much everyone paid to get in"; There are too many variables to calculate >.>
But I don't think it would. Actually I'm pretty sure it would be an extra crown sink in the economy (which is always great).
If you can come up with an efficient equation involving their Final Score, I'd be really grateful ^^
However the crowns add up, the top 3 or 4 of the game should at the very least get enough coins to fund their next run through the game. Such is an unspoken tradition of the Krogmo games. I'd attempt to make it to where half the group playing (should they be playing with just the bare min. of crowns) could continue to play with no fear of running out of coins, but if that can't be managed, it should be made certain that the top 4 (basically top 3rd) get the payment required for more play.
If we stick to the 200 crown usual of the Krogmo games, that's 2200 - (2200x.2) = 1660 cr to win. The percentage reduction is so it's still a crown sink for OOO, and is close to the LD and BN sink level.
So, say we reward the top 6 players equally that's roughly 277 cr/ winner... less than LD team pay.
I'll take the original concauction of 1660/6, take the 76 2/3 cr (to reduce the starting reward to 200 cr) and hold it in a different pot for some stock for the winners. 460 cr worth of stock.
6th place gets straight 200 cr (sorry 6th)
5th gets 240 cr
4th gets 260 cr
3rd gets 300 cr
2nd gets 320 cr
1st gets 340 cr
Maximum profit is less than BN (if I recall correctly), but isn't something to scoff at. That and half the players are allowed to play again with little problem. Granted, should an elitist eventually rise in this game... they could make a sweet profit off this since it also releases Krogmo coins, but the same can be said of any LD or BN veteran/elitist.
Does that system sound reasonable? Because while I know having final score being the ultimate distributor of the coins would be great, that system isn't something simple, which if you're a developer of a game like this, you really want it simple and easy to comprehend. Now, mind you this system is for the "stock" match of 11 people playing. I could develop an extreme series of equations for everyone to run off of, but I need to know a baseline first. (I really miss my graphing calculator... T.T loan it to someone and never see it again)
@Blue-Phaze I'll start working on the system tomorrow provided I have time after school, lacrosse practice, and my concert (It's been a busy week). Of course, if you want to use Skolds, that's awesome.
Thanks Skold, even though you didn't say it in your post, you made me realize that LD's and BN's rewards are always 70% of the total amount of crowns spent to play. If Survival followed it that way, we should have:
(70/100) * 2200 = 1540
1540 should be the total amount of crowns rewarded to players. If only the top 5 received rewards, each would get an average of 308 crowns. Of course they can't receive the same rewards, that'd be unfair. So I propose:
1st -- 410
2nd - 360
3rd - 310
4th - 260
5th - 200
All that adds up to 1540.
Simple and easy to comprehend. I guess that's what OOO would do since LD and BN work the same way.
Krogmo Coins would be rewarded as usual.
EDIT: Added this to OP, changed matches to always last only eleven rounds (22 seemed like too much), added Darkbrady's old suggestion and made some sentences a bit clearer.
I didn't know the exact sink level for LD and BN, but I knew one was there. I suppose my method would be a little more.... socially sympathetic. (read under socialist influences)
You forgot to thank Skold for his revelation on the crown sinks.
It's something anyone playing Krogmo arena regularly will notice after enough matches. It's not exactly a large revelation on my behalf... just a reminder.
Also, we should probably develop a system so additional players can join without having to wait for another 11, this includes rewarding and possible additions/retractions to the game.
(i.e. Bob wants to join Survival but sees only the set amount of people are playing and has seen that nobody else will join around this time.)
I imagine for rewards, the crown count would behave like BN and have an increase relative to 70% of the extra(s) entry fee(s) divided among the original winners and would gradually "trinkle down" as more extras are placed within the game. (If I recall correctly BN gives prize for 2nd when 5-6 players are on free-for-all and then 3rd is given a reward when 7-8 players play.
I think my most basic question should be what will the maximum amount and minimum amount of players be? Then we could possibly setup rewards systems for each grouping.
So able to unbind a name for a CE cost?
@Skold
yea, I thought of having modes with a different number of players too, but I guess a room with too many players could have some serious problems with lag and would have to last for too much time. Although a match with less players could still be fun, what do you guys think of 6 players in a small room, maybe the size of a BN map?
Rounds would last 35 seconds, giving Hunters 7 seconds to find each Prey (in a small room, that's quite enough).
The maximum time spent playing this smaller mode would be 3 and a half minutes, as much as a LD/BN match.
Rewards are 70% of money spent on entry fees (1200*7/10), what would give them 840 crowns:
1st -- 300
2nd - 280
3rd - 260
Yep, I think that's enough to make a smaller mode. This shall be called "Survival", regarding the time spent on it, leaving the other with "Endurance" (since it can last up to half an hour).
@Hexzyle
I guess you were trying to reply to http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/32938 this thread, weren't you?
If not, I couldn't quite understand your question =/
I understand a BN size room isn't that abundant in hiding holes, but I think a solid minute should be given to everyone involved in a short match. This allows the prey a little time to develop an ambush (should they dare) and implement it, it also gives an assassin time to catch up with all the strikers should he be having a hard time looking invisible to them. I'm also looking at T1 usage of weapons and everything, not much in the way of selection (or power) when you cut off the status effects from their weaps against the hunter.
That and 35 second matches would probably really tick off everyone involved because of the rush factor being so extreme it's not funny.
Say a guardian and juggy meet in T1, guardian's shield holds for five smacks from juggy before juggy can even swing at the guardian himself, that'll sap a good 7 secs if not more in T1. If juggy's given more time, he can eat the shield and smack guardian for (at the least) a decent amount of damage.
If I'm reading correctly and doing the math correctly in my head a T1 striker vs. a bombardier gets hit by a bomb will die in one shot. Assassin will likely take him in 2 swings/3 shots/ 1 or 2 charge shots. Juggy will probably just bash his skull in a swing.
Also, do you think revival systems should be allowed as per PvE? Where the healer halves health for their ally to rise again? Definitely provides an additional factor in the game. In the points system it could just function as restarting the timer and giving the players a second chance for more damage against the hunter.
-I don't know, I can't really test it, unfortunately. A whole minute would give the Hunter 12 seconds to catch each player; not a big difference IMO. Although that would make the game last 6 minutes. On second thought, I guess 7 seconds might be too little time; you're probably right.
Adding that to OP.
-Reviving would just make the game much harder. I believe no players would ever be able to kill everyone if they could be revived. If you want more damage against the hunter, you can always wait for the next round.
BN size room isn't that abundant in hiding holes
I've just noticed we haven't discussed about which kinds of hideouts and traps Preys would have at their disposal to outwit the hunter.
Maybe hollow trunks?
Walls?
Force fields (those at the start of any CW level) could be quite a chalenge too (passing by them by accident could force you to go around it again).
Spikes could work like in BN, stunning players instead of dealing damage.
I welcome any other ideas.
Just figured I'd interject a little analysis on time. I'm basically wondering if and how the people will find the time to A: band together (since that's likely the first option someone would take) B: Choose their class properly (will they only get one choice and have to stick with it?) and most importantly C: Hunter getting time to feel out their prey and finding them. While in T2/T3 the time limit of 7 secs/person could become non-issue easily, I see it being a real drag on the hunters of T1. A minute of being an all out predator even, would still feel a little... I dunno... teasing? You just begin to taste the flavor of it and then it is gone.
Anyway, on the subject of hiding places. If the camera angle will be set, a few walls and trees could perform this objective beautifully... however with Hunter Flair.... I could see making a ton of hidey holes a bit useless unless the hiding hole enacts a forcefield function or something. It could very easily become quite an issue.
To be brutally honest having hiding spots nerfs the Recon class a bit imo. A major point of the Recon class is that you literally can't see them when they're shielding. You can only sense that they're nearby and thereby become paranoid (basically the mark function in a nutshell) and lack a bit of confidence.
Concerning hazard floors, I think this would isolate the players out... should the hunter have complete status nulling... So maybe we should find a way around that or something? I wouldn't know what exactly to recommend, prehaps Skolver/Vog Cub Coat level resistance to all statuses or something? No clue. Or simply drop the stun resistance...?
Missiles should be available to the prey at random locations, something to activate them on the hunter or something, I'm not saying load the floor down with missile after missile, just one or two or a homing bomb or something to keep the hunter on their toes, I would limit the amount of times said weapons could be activated to 3 times at best though.
Just a couple thoughts.
A: It's not really nescessary to band togheter. Even though Preys are fighting for the same cause (surviving), they're still on their own, collecting points for themselves and hoping they're the only survivors.
B: Class pads should be available within the maze, in a separated area, which wouldn't let preys back in if they've already left it, but would give free access to Hunters, in case someone tries to camp in there. The same goes for Hunter's class pads (Although Preys wouldn't have free access to them).
C: I changed that to 12 seconds already (rounds lasting 1 minute). If players feel like there's too little time to be the Hunter, they should play the 11-player mode.
So, about hiding places becoming an issue. The Flair's main purpose is to give the Hunter a little notion of where he should aim to, thus, if preys could hide from the Flair, I can see never ending rounds dominating Survival.
I believe traps such as spikes or force fields should play a much bigger role on the game than hideouts, since hiding from the Flair shouldn't be allowed possible.
Or simply drop the stun resistance
I guess that should be the wisest thing to do. The games orbits around speed, fast paced chasing, outwits and sudden turning of directions. If the only speed influencing status was left out of play the game could even become a little boring.
Of course, not making the hunter immune to stun would result in lots of strikers using Rigadoons and Sudaruskas, but that shouldn't be a big problem, since hunters can outrun preys quite easily.
I'll change that in the OP, Hunters should definitely be affected by Stun.
So preys have a hard time banding together, separate spawn points could be easy to implement.
Preys should be respawned on points equally distant to the Hunter's spawn point.
Like this:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg46/scaled.php?server=46&filename=hunter...
Hunters respawn at the red H.
Preys respawn at yellow points.
Green points are only for Frenzy mode, and should be closer to the Hunter, since it's in a smaller map.
There are variety in maps in LD and BN, so I think I'll throw my ideas into the mix
Trenches: http://cybercyro.deviantart.com/art/PNG-Map1-283820454 (Copy Image into Paint or other thing and zoom in)
A grassy/dirt landscape with dead and near death trees.
The Hunter spawns in the middle of the map which is designated with a dead tree (this tree is significant in the sense that it has fiend markings on it, but no other tree does), the prey spawns on top of cliffs and right under them. You can see the sections at the top and bottom of the map where there is a peninsula and that's where the classes will be (hunter's at the bottom and prey at the top). Trees are spread around the map and some can be walked on to reach the top of cliffs. Down below the cliffs there are trenches which can safely lead you through the map (EX: Back of a cliff --> Fiend tree --> Top class choises --> Hunter class choices). Everyone can access these places, but you can't attack or shield in them and you can't attack people in them (unless the hunter is the bomb class). Due to the game's physics you can't simply jump in them, you need to find an entrance point somewhere along the trenches, some trenches even run all the way on top of the cliffs.
Might have forgotten to add something and I'll only make one idea since I don't know if you'd want more or not
That looks godly, Oakgear! It's just the kind of map I had imagined. It's an open 'maze', with traps and hideouts but no dead ends; it's based on a certain theme (in this case, a dark forest) and is great for chasing and outwits.
I loved the idea of dead trees with fiendish markings; they would add a mysterious environment which combined to the already thrilling feel of the game itself, could become really exciting. And it's even symetrical, how awesome is that?
That's just perfect, I loved it ^^
Note: The green respawn points are meant for 'Frenzy mode', which has only 5 Preys and would be located in a smaller map. Despite that detail, you did a great work.
I don't know if you'd want more or not
I do. moar, plz :D I guess you won't mind if I add that one to the OP ^^
Forgot that there's only 5 in frenzy mode
I edited one for frenzy mode- http://cybercyro.deviantart.com/art/PNG-Map1-Frenzy-283868786
And visit the link I already gave for the normal mode
In the frenzy mode the edges of the map are glowing a fiendish purple
And the spawn near the hunter is separated by a trench and an entrance to the trench isn't near them
And in this one prey classes to the left and hunter to the right
Oakgear, take a bow... you've answered my questions and have made the map easy to understand. Bravo.
Gear Fallen:
Normal- http://cybercyro.deviantart.com/art/PNG-Map2-284012671
Frenzy- http://cybercyro.deviantart.com/#/d4p3dre
A factory style map (like RT) where a random jumble of gears have fallen from great heights and are indented into the steel floors and they've breached the gears underneath the platform that turn the purple and yellow gates, so when there is a switch flipped the corresponding YP gate will be changed and a random gear in the ground will turn while in the ground and reveal the part where it is hollowed out allowing a new passage. All gears at the start of the level are showing none are hidden/off. In normal & frenzy the classes for prey is upper left, hunter upper right. (Frenzy is a jumble of stuff, I just took the left side of the normal map and put them on the right, then copied the side and made it symmetrical) (Light blue areas on both maps can be walls or gears in the ground)
Tell me if this idea went away from the huntery feel or suggestions
That looks even more gorgeous; damn, you are creative as hell. I have no words.
Would you like to be my official Map Designer? :3
If Gear Fallen is an abandoned factory or have some wrecked machines scattered, it wouldn't leave the feeling of savagery.
Basically any theme with a bit of destruction and age should be nice to keep that feel.
What i think, is that the hunte's size should be doubled, as well as their weapons and weapons effects. that would be interesting no?
You mean as big as a Spiral Warden? Yeah, I guess that would explain why hunters are so fast. Good idea.
I guess that Hunter Flair representation should be reedited... Volunteers? :3
i know u said that the object of game is to survive but i really wouldnt like to play PvP w/o weapons. IDEA: prey can use vials. not potent or anything but at least something to give 'em the edge. but in overall this seems better than Blast Network and/or LD. Awesome job man.
but they do have weapons, otherwise Hunters having health would be pointless. I guess you didn't read the whole thing XD
Their objective is to survive, but damaging the Hunter can give you even more points than hiding.
About vials, I opted not to include them because status could be exploited in many ways.
Thanks for suggesting though ^^
Sewers:
Normal- http://cybercyro.deviantart.com/art/PNG-Map3-284182733
Frenzy- http://cybercyro.deviantart.com/#/d4p731h
Underneath the Haven Fountain is a decaying sewer, with crumbly looking walls that are a brown shade and broken floors with green sludge spots everywhere. There is water in the place of the black areas and walls in the light blue. There are 2 turn switches randomized on the map if they are hit while both remain green they flood the existing currents and the rivers extend 2 pixels outward from all directions (Hunter can't make green only turn back red once green). The flood is a slow transition so it will push knights away if they are in the 2 pixel reach. Classes for normal prey lower left, hunter lower right (And yes the flood will block off the classes, but the flood isn't forever it lasts 15-20 seconds or the hunter can switch the turn the knobs back to red). But in classes frenzy right side middle hunter and left side prey (and in this the flood blocs it off, but people may be inside of the area above the classes area and can still access it). Yes I realize the hunter may get stuck in a flooded section away from prey, but that motivates them to finish the job faster. Encase I didn't mention 2 pixels away means it only goes one square diagonally.
So they're basically stranded... interesting.
I like how this map can be completely changed with just two swings. Although I think it might be chalenging to program, since these switches usually just open/close gates.
Anyways, thanks for all the help, we already have 6 maps and they're just awesome. If you wish to make more I'm always accepting new ideas.
EDIT: I just added brief descriptions on the OP about these maps to give readers a better notion of how they'd look like.
When a suggestion for new content is getting on to the third page, it's time for it to be implemented into the game. COME ON DEVS!
after this post it reaches it's fourth page. Wonderful work Oakgear. I think the devs will have plenty more ease with implementation if these maps are used.
@Skold
Not really... Modeling, texturizing, programming and testing a map is a really tough job. These maps are only meant to show people how they would look like (size and architecture).
So, I was thinking about making Hunters as big as a Spiral Warden, like Diamondshreddie suggested, but I came to the conclusion that they would have to have their hit box expanded as well. They'd probably become overpowered with that bigger range and would look odd trying to slay or shoot someone lower than themselves.
This means we still need a way to distinguish them with special detais, like Recon's antennae or Guardian's flag.
Any artworks or ideas are welcome.
Maybe a snarbolax inspired armor with shadow dragon wings. I can't think of anything that looks more like a hunter.
Wings should be nice I guess... I mean, a freneticaly flapping pair of wings would certainly give you a speed boost, and justify Hunters' Movement Speed Increase.
But would that be for all three classes? I was looking for something unique for each.
Wings for juggy, cause he's just a boss that way.
Reptile-like (or some other manner of) tail for the Assassin.
Spikes all over for the Bombardier.
For the assassin the chaos set would look awesome. Mercurial demo suit but shiny black for the bomber, and snarby for the juggernaut.
i dont think the size problem will be an issue, seeing as the main object for the players is to hide and run... and if the hunter got gangraped by skolvers he would be a ble to defend hinself
When the prey are in the hiding spots are the hunters able to get in there because if they arnt people would just stay in the hiding spots
@Skold @Aemicus
Those are wearable outside the game, players would confuse the hunter with an ordinary prey wearing similar stuff (wings or chaos set). It should be something unique, exclusive of Survival, just like antennas, flags and rockets are exclusive of Lockdown.
@Diamondshreddie
main object for the preys is to hide and run
It doesn't really matter, hunters would still get an increased range, which would probably imbalance the game.
I've already discussed the possibility of players ganging on the Hunter; they should be strong enough to be able to kill 7 out of 10 players in a 'gang'.
That will very likely make ganging a bad choice.
@Skillkid
Of course they would, otherwise, people would just stay in the hiding spots.
Thanks for reading all of that, btw ;)
Hunter classes all maintain a specific translucent aura to the class they've chosen. (yes, I'm basically talking SK meeting DBZ, stay with me though)
Juggernaut gets a deep red aura and personal color that surrounds them. This shows that he is likely to be far more aggressive than the other 2 classes.
Assassin gets shadowy purple both aura and personal color. Reflecting the stealthy aspect.
Bombardier gets a light blue/light green aura and personal color. Reflecting his overall speed.
Think that this could work?
Off of Skolds idea, maybe just have a hazy black blur for all of them, with only their weapon visible. It would keep the prey guessing which class is after them.
Using an aura would keep things simpler on a whole for everyone involved... there'd be little question who the hunter is, and the hunter feels awesome for having an aura.
But I think this "Hunter vs. the World" idea might do for the game--or maybe... for the "Spiral Empire" concept I've heard all about! It might be a wonderful idea!
Auras... Yeah, they would work, I'd expected a piece of equipment, but auras will do the trick.
Keeping enemies from guessing which class the hunter is, would give him another advantage. I feel like the game is already at the edge of balance, one step further would probably make the hunter OP.
@Phiero
I didn't quite get what you said... but thanks anyway (I'm guessing it's a compliment) XD
So, hey, since we are at this 'creativity' thing, I thought I should give yet another chalenge.
Coming up with a symbol to represent Survival. It can be basically anything, as long as it relates to surviving and SK.
I'd really appreciate any kinds of artworks, although I welcome ideas as well.
So, I actually am no artist, but an idea is a group of knights, kinda like the dragon wing promo pose thingy, in front of a massive shadowy snarbolax hood with glowing eyes. And I mean massive. The knights are all holding their weapons out, the first one has a Levi blade, the one behind a Sentenza, and the third one an Ash of Agni above their head.
@Skold
If you can't draw it atm, just say what you have in mind. ^^
@Aemicus
Featuring hunters and preys as a symbol could turn out cool, but I'd like it to be something simple, something that is the 'main focus' of the game.
For instance, Blast Network's main focus is handling bombs (thus, its symbol is a bomb, which is simple enough). Lockdown's main focus is teamwork (therefore, its symbol is three players representing a team).
I know Survival's main focus (which may be survive, chase, run, sneak, surprise attacks ...) is kind of abstract, but still, there should be something sufficiently simple to represent it, I just didn't figure it out yet >.>
Too bad we're only three people =/ I wish more fellow forumers would help us out...
AEMICUSSSSS!!!!!!
I WILL KICK YOU INTO THE PIT SO HELP ME!!!
No, seriously, great to see. 101st post for me...
Enjoy your glory Aemicuss.... I'll see you in Assassin gear later :P lol