Still probably going to keep my distance from Spiral until I can trade my CE for access to the expansion missions.
Expansion Mission packs unlockable with CE?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:19
#102
Still probably going to keep
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:21
#103
Again, another player who
Again, another player who says he only spends money on this game because he doesn't have to, but will quit and not spend any more money if new content becomes P2P only. What is with these players, only spending money if they DON'T have to, but quitting if they do?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:22
#104
Ah, thank you Nick. yay for
Ah, thank you Nick. yay for progression content!!!!1!!11
(We can do the missions over and over to learn fights etc. unlike shadow keys if someone reads this and is confused)
And finally last question, will there be lore involved with the Expansion Mission that free players cannot experience?
I highly suggest removing anything like extra artifacts obtained by Expansion missions that reveal lore etc possibly about alpha squad etc, because it would make the free players feel entirely excluded from the game itself.
It sort of felt this way with the Shadow Lair echo stones, but on the bright side, you can just get the SL snarb echo stone for example and it feels like you get the jist (however that is spelled) of the "swarm" and such.
I know that people can just go to the wiki and read each artifact, but it just feels so much different.
But I think having an Echo Stone in a SL is better than a lore artifact in a required pay expansion mission because a free player could manage to do a SL.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:23
#105
Gah... and I just purchased
Gah... and I just purchased CE in anticipation of these expansion missions... I feel ripped off now :/
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:24
#106
@Nick Any idea on price
@Nick Any idea on price range? I have very very little money to work with every month, and I want to make sure I can get the crimson order mission, but I'd like to know if I'd have enough to renew my elevator pass to, I'd hate to have to choose between one or the other.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:29
#107
Meh
I'm sticking to normal Clockworks runs, still need to earn crowns for some stuff I intend to give to my friends. More profitable anyway, especially with the Elevator pass (which is one cash-purchased thing I'm really grateful for).
Don't like the missions? Don't do it.
Don't like the fact that you need real money to buy expansion missions? Don't buy it.
Don't like the whole 'f2p betrayal' thing? It's up to you to decide your course of action from there.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:34
#108
@Tammy
you dont get it do you? If a game is nice enough as it is without having to force you to spend tons of money on it, you naturally want to spend a bit to support or get that little extra stuff that you couldn't get before. If a game forces you to pay tons of money to get everything would you spend that money?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:39
#109
Prices of Expansion Missions
Prices of Expansion Missions will vary and will be priced on the content they deliver. We'd like to try different things in this space. Our first will feature some mission rewards that we feel are worth the price of admission alone, but then there's the whole awesome adventure to go along with it :)
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:46
#110
:/
"but then there's the whole awesome adventure to go along with it :)"
:/ Should I post a reaction about reading such kind of thing as a f2p player that won't have a chance to get to play this? Though this counts as one, I think.
:/
I feel sort of being mocked.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:46
#111
Hmm
Sounds cool! Can't wait.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:49
#112
Hey Nick do us tier 3 players
Hey Nick do us tier 3 players a solid and just make expansion mission difficulty add on to the difficulty of the tier. For instance, in addition to Tier 1/2/3 why not add a Normal/Hard/V.Hard?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:50
#113
First
Thanks Nick for being helpful in this thread. It's very brave.
Personally I've decided not to use Steam because I don't want a third party collecting data about how I play. No amount of shinies will change my mind and as a consumer, the more people defend Steamlike entities to me, the farther I back away. I also have no way to pay for anything online anymore. That may put me in a minority, but without client-side gifting, I will be locked out of this new content.
I assume that as a developer, you feel I am just not seeing how cool Steam is. That's why I'm impressed you actually want client-side gifting, please follow through! Thank you for being open minded!
The first time I was invited on a Shadow Lair run, as someone who never thought they would get to, it was very exciting. It made me feel really good about SK and I continue to anticipate going on more.
With these pay only missions, even if someone could gift them to me, I don't really see why someone would pay their money to do that. It doesn't really make me anticipate gifting actually happening, it just... seems unreasonable to expect. I probably have one of your top ten spenders in my guild, and they would never do this.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:53
#114
Asthix - We see a lot of
Asthix - We see a lot of gifting behavior across all of our games, so it's something we think some players would take advantage of for sure.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 18:54
#115
@ Asthix
You cannot gift
@ Asthix
You cannot gift things purchased with steam to another person who does not have steam.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:02
#116
nick,
i have a few questions, but i will jump to the more important ones: Will king tinkinzar and all the rest of the crimson order related missions be only avalible in expansion missions? Will the same happen to the swarm? because, the crimson order is the main piece (togheter with the swarm) of the whole story of spiral knights! well, in my point, lord tinkinzar is basically the lord genome of this game (if you know who lord genome is, you are awesome), or in other words: a VERY important character for the story, so we can't just say: "one of the main villains of the game is avalible to fight! discover the truth behind all this war now! for five dollars per player.".
On average, how much will each mission cost? Because i'm willing to pay a few dollars for some new quality content, and yes, i am going to buy the crimson order DLC, but i excpect a quality level equal/superior than the price i had to pay for it.
And the last important question: What are those special "set items"? weapons? shields? armor? is there any way to get them without having to complete the missions?
Now for the minor questions:
-how old are those mini-gremilins (those with the mineral staff-like weapons)?
-bechamel is a guy or a girl?
I hope you can answer all my questions, and i really hope you find a way to deal with all the angry f2p fanbase.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:06
#117
@Zinco
I can answer you about Bechamel: in the translation of the Scissor Blades' description to Spanish, Bechamel is referred to as "Bechamel, el Accesorizador", so Bechamel would be a he.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:11
#118
@Asthix
That's funny, I have
@Asthix
That's funny, I have very little money and I still gift to my friends, in and outside of SK. I don't think being rich has as much to do with the spending habits. Depending on how things go I am going to gift this to at least one of my friends.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:11
#119
@Nick
You can do whatever you want with the expansion missions but PLEASE PLEASE don't have the Darkfang Shield as a reward
my 1 and only request to you
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:14
#120
+1 for Alynn, Keep darkfang
+1 for Alynn, Keep darkfang rare!
@Nick, Better question, Could I afford a elevator pass and the next expansion on a budget of only $10 a month?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:14
#121
I don't know how to react to
I don't know how to react to this. SK will no longer be F2P.
This is a very bad time to pull out something like this because F2P players have been waiting for new content that isn't a rehashed marketing scheme for ages now. When you finally decide to release new content, you have to buy it as a DLC pack with real money? I'll be officially done with this game, as in never looking back, if this change goes through. I feel that what the developers are trying to pull is low and it's basically mocking every F2P player out there.
Hello Tera/GW2.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:16
#122
Are you serious?
Unbelievable. So now expansion missions can only be played if you pay with real money? I wouldn't have cared so much if Nick said this initially, but he didn't. He said we would be able to play expansion missions by paying CE, and essentially this statement ended up being a straight up LIE. Again, unbelievable. My respect for OOO? Down the drain. Nick, don't tell me that you need the extra cash for more revenue to continue developing the game. Because that's bull, and you know it. There is more than enough people buying CE packs already. This is just greedy, plain and simple. So much for being able to enjoy everything the game has to offer without spending cash.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:23
#123
I wouldn't go far to say that
I wouldn't go far to say that he's a liar for it. Sometimes developers end up changing their minds, or sometimes they enter in the wrong thing by mistake. Besides, this was said before the content was even made buyable. So far this content has been seen as optional and they said that there will be other free content.
I'm guessing expansions are like sideplots to the main story line.
As far as the people who don't like the fact that content is rehashed; what are you expecting out of the game? It seems that you could throw in a lot of perks and quirks but at its core it's still going to be an action rpg, and I don't know if you could really produce something that is very new and different without radically altering the game. Are people wanting new storyline content? Well that doesn't require a lot of new levels. And even new levels won't change how the game fundamentally works and feels. I'm not saying they've hit a dead end but I am saying that I think the game doesn't have too much direction.
In fact I feel like it's a sort of pokemon syndrome. The new games are just the old games but with repackaged quirks that hook in people. Most play the games, even if they are samey, because they like the story line or new pokemon. I feel that's the same with Spiral Knights; if they can keep an interesting amount of story and quirks I think I'd actually be hooked, but I don't expect anything radically new and altering to happen.
(I would also advise anyone who is very bored with SK at the moment to take a little break. I'm not saying leave, I'm saying that burnout happens when you have too much of something and it's good to take breaks every once in awhile).
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:39
#124
"We'd like to try different
"We'd like to try different things"
This is pretty much what the devs have been doing, and they came up with the elevator pass. Many people said it would entirely end the economy (which it did not because promos put more CE into the market, but still) but regardless they kept playing. I have a feeling that the expansion missions will work like the shadow keys and the elevator pass. It will eventually just be accepted and ignored by the players.
You can call the shadow keys something like "Oh, it's the devs being greedy and there is nothing that we can do about it like other future greedy things" but you are absolutely lying. There is something you can do, and nobody does it. It's partially your fault. You get bored with voicing your opinion like shadow keys being bad, and then its our fault that it isn't even brought up anymore. If it was an active issue, it would obviously be changed or the game would die.
So to summarize what I am saying, if you truly believe this will ruin the game and you see it ruining the game, then actually try to voice your opinion maybe this time? Holy heck did you guys disappoint me on shadow keys. One day protests mean nothing, and "don't buy CE" protests don't exactly A. work or B. get noticed by the devs. There's this thing we have that devs read, and it is called the forums.
If it is not an active issue and you eventually see the forums never talking about the Expansion Missions, similarly to the overlooked, bad shadow keys, it isn't the devs fault entirely. If you honestly cared enough, which we did not with the shadow keys and we grew to accept it, you will slowly grow to accept the Expansion Missions.
Personally, I love the idea in the way that it is do-able over and over on purchase. It is too bad that it has to be multiple purchases, but whatever. You can pick and choose what content you purchase. I will be looking forward to it personally. That is just me, and I usually spend 50 bucks on a good new game, or a recurring 15 bucks a month or even both. In this game, I get to have a 5 ish bucks a month elevator pass "subscription", and possibly spend more to match that 50 bucks (money spent on new content Expansion Missions). So I view this game as not only a great game, but cheaper in comparison to other new games/mmos while p2p.
My +1 to the expansion missions is because it is not a hidden "oh it will cost this much which is basically pay to play but we can still say free players can go after them so should they choose because its by CE not actual $$" and it is nothing like the shadow keys. It is nothing like the shadow keys in the ridiculous amount that you will have to pay, and that is what makes it 10x better. No matter how bad you think this is, the shadow keys are worse.
So that's just me.
@Nick, will the Darkfang Shield be available in the new gremlin content (if there is)???
I think that would be a very bad item to bring back. Many players have used it as a sign of being rich etc. or as a memory how they found an extremely rare item, and having it easily available would ruin that.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:37
#125
So if I tell you I'll sell
So if I tell you I'll sell you a cookie for 50 cents, then the next day I tell you that it's going to cost $10 that doesn't make me a liar? Don't tell me that is a bad analogy because it's pretty close. And I agree wholeheartedly with Exileddread, and I too shall be quitting this game for good if this actually happens.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:40
#126
Advice for OOO
Since you guys will be charging $$$ for DLC (a.k.a. expansion missions), some F2P players will be pissed. (It won't matter what you do, once you bring up $$$, some F2P will be pissed regardless. It's in their genes.)
The real risk here is that, if you do charge $$$ for DLC, be sure you deliver quality. Otherwise, you could end up pissing off both F2P (which as mentioned above, will happen once you bring up $$$ question, so don't mind them) and P2P players (a.k.a. people who pay for your bread and butter).
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:45
#127
No. That's mostly because I
No. That's mostly because I think it's alright to change a planned price before the transaction is complete. Now if I bought that cookie while it was 50 cents but you decided I owed you $10 that would be fraudulent and a scam. I am not going to get hung up about it mostly because they haven't done anything to dupe us on the prices yet, they just changed the payment plan.
You can try and make this a moral outrage but they haven't named any prices yet to begin with.
Also by your logic it would be considered "lying" to change prices for anything ever.
@Eltia
Exactly this. I hope whatever they put in these expansion packs justifies buying them because that could be a bad move if it doesn't. If you get a lot of standard clockworks missions, for example, some people will just get absolutely ticked (that is unless the expansions are dirt cheap, which hey, maybe they will be?)
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:43
#128
@ Jcasdfqwer (did you just bang your head on the keyboard?)
To me, that doesn't sell like telling a lie. That sounds more like extreme inflation.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:44
#129
"and I too shall be quitting
"and I too shall be quitting this game for good if this actually happens."
Can you at least be on the forums bringing up what you believe is the issue worth quitting over? It might get fixed then. Hoping it doesn't actually happen is not taking initiative.
I see over and over repeats of the awful Shadow Key disapproval. We need to make tons and tons of new threads so devs see there are people who disagree. Quietly quitting helps nobody nor the game. And if you think tons of threads don't work, just look at how they made the pet survey. Tons of pet threads = pet survey. What do you think tons of Expansion Mission disapproval threads mean?
It is safe to say we will be as pathetic in our disapproval as the shadow keys.
Personally I like the idea of Expansion Missions, so I'll gladly watch as this one is quiet as well.......
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:50
#130
IN FACT DUDES I'll go make a
IN FACT DUDES I'll go make a "support this thread if you disagree with the shadow key idea"
and there will be maybe 1 or 2 responses.
This was an accidental double post so why not make it useful
I'll prove it isn't the devs fault for the most part (the editing kind of makes the time of post look funny)
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:48
#131
Something will eventually be
Something will eventually be done with the Darkfang Shield in some kind of future content, but not for this upcoming Expansion Mission.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:49
#132
:O noooo
Will it at least be
:O noooo
Will it at least be something like a rare drop that specifically has a less rare chance to drop from monsters or something?
I think it is best to keep the shield rare as it is not exactly used for defense, but more as an artifact
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:52
#133
We need to save rare drops!
We need to save rare drops! Darkfang is the last one, If you plan to take it, at least give us different drops :(
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 19:54
#134
Possibly something like an
Possibly something like an artifact or costume.
This way it isn't looked at as a piece of gear that needs balanced etc.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 20:01
#135
I'm not impressed.
Darkfang becoming common? why cant we keep items rare? I own one, and I own it because its a rare item. Is the plan just to make every other rare item common too? Shells, love lockets... what next, Slooms have their own strata and Zee cores become 100% drop rate?
As Rawrcake mentioned, I like the other handful of people wear it as status or something of that nature, its the only rare item we can really show off now, please don't make it easily obtainable, or at least have a different version that looks different, like... Ironcloaw defender?
I came here because Kuger just informed me about this. If it does become obtainable like Vog, something else to be sought after would be nice, I can't be a collector if there is nothing to collect.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 20:05
#136
I really don't like something
I really don't like something being made rare for rarity's sake. I just think it's very.. asinine, it sounds like people are complaining that their items are less unique.
The funny thing is that I saw people begging for the same thing on whirled as well, asking for artists and animators to make their work "rare" even if they wanted to share their art with the public market. I know I was asked to make my own stuff rare before even though I try to share all my flash resources and files with the public... so maybe I'm biased, but I find the argue for rarity to be superficial.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 20:39
#137
hmmmmm
a bit dissapointed....but if this pumps out content faster thats good. at least you can steam trade it :/
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 20:54
#138
No matter how much whining
No matter how much whining and complain, they still come back to play sk. It had been proven with all the updates history. So embrace it gracefully .
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 21:03
#139
-1 to the darkfang becoming
-1 to the darkfang becoming not rare, I think it should stay the way it is
If it is changed for whatever reason (we already have an elemental shield just like it) there needs to be some other item for, as Psycho-Dani said, collectors to collect. Having rare monsters is nice, one used to drop a rare pendant which is no longer rare but for a good reason - it was a piece of equipment that was a game changer in LD and stuff. Now at least its more balanced, pendant people can fight pendant people.
We already have two elemental defense 5* shields (owlite and heater) and we do not need another
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 21:21
#140
DLC?
DLC? Shame on you Nick.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 21:25
#141
Lol Rawrcake.
Why should it
Lol Rawrcake.
Why should it be so rare? It has a function, after all. Why not make some other reskin of owlite or heater or darkfang and sell that on AH for a featured auction? It wouldn't be too hard? Or, if you'd prefer, have it drop only. Seriously.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 21:27
#142
Cause it is the only last
Cause it is the only last rare item in this game!
:o
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 21:47
#143
This is serious business now.
My personal opinion on it goes like this.
The main reason anybody still plays this game, is the promise of future content.
If you (Three Rings) had told them ahead of time, there was a possibility this future content that they have been waiting months for, was going to cost them money on top of what they had paid/earned already, I can guarantee you more than half of them would have quit on the spot.
Because as of right now, we seem to be Valve's Marketing Department's Guinea Pigs when it comes to Microtransactions.
Will they pay for one time use Keys just for a chance at getting purely cosmetic rubbish?
Yes.
Will they pay for one time use Keys to access the only difficult content in the game?
Yes.
Will they pay for content that has been promised for them for over a year, that will probably never make it into the Clockworks (without a Clockworks Expansion, at least)?
We'll find out.
I'm not happy with the prospect of having not only my wallet tested, but my will to continue enjoying this game and certain parts of it's community. I will more than likely leave if this business of charging people for content that is and will probably never be finished, continues.
This is not acceptable.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 22:01
#144
Scissor blades are rare.
@Rawrcake- Scissor blades are rare. Aren't you happy with them?
And I'm going to have to agree with shoebox... the only reason that people even play the game past beating shadow lairs and Duke and all of that is for the hope that one day OOO will wake up and release a challenging new enemy or two... and then they never do (or when they do it isn't prominent at all, or isn't a challenge at all)... and it makes me sad.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 21:59
#145
I'll be honest, I'm
I'll be honest, I'm incredibly pessimistic about the idea now that I've read the details more thoroughly, primarily because of the limitation it puts onto F2P players who want to remain F2P, as well as the implied price gouging that -will- be done by P2P players to gift this to people who just can't be bothered to use their preferred method of payment. I understand that the SK economy is entirely player-run and that's okay, but when a significant item becomes obtainable only through a transaction that involves real money, then it becomes "player-run with a hint of whatever we'd like to influence as well".
Another point that was brought up by several people like Nicoya and Exileddread is that this is for all intents and purposes a money wall that would actually promote a division between F2P players and P2P players. Yeah, on paper, this might look good but in reality, this is going to greatly deter future F2P people from joining, and probably turn away several P2P players already. While a few leaving here and there is insignificant, you have to keep in mind that eventually a few here, a few there... those numbers add up. On top of that, as they've already mentioned, there's no way you could legitimately call this game a purely F2P game anymore without some sort of disclaimer that states it's only free to play if you're okay with being screwed on content.
The only plus side to this that I can see is that it's genuine new content as opposed to rehashed crap, which I'm all for, but to give players paid DLC on game where the premise is being "free-to-play", without so much as giving F2P players basic expansion mission access, is really disconcerting to me.
So, if you are still reading this post Nick, I have a question. Are there going to be any plans for free expansion packs being implemented in the near future after Operation: Crimson Hammer? As in, within a month after the paid content's release? If not, are you at liberty to at least explain to us why, with an answer that's a bit more in-depth than it being a "new business model"?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 22:17
#146
Well color me disappointed,
Well color me disappointed, I'm not really sure how to feel about all this. :s
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 22:29
#147
...
Do we have to buy every mission, or just one time for full expansion?
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 22:31
#148
I suppose not surprising most
I suppose not surprising most of this thread is being ignored. It's pretty well known that forumers are a minority of a minority of the player base, and the most vocal generally say one thing and do another: ("I WILL QUIT IF THIS HAPPENS! But you'll still see me playing anyway.") My guess is that if there is a reversal coming it's after they see the actual data.
I do personally suspect there is going to be a big drop off in activity. There really hasn't been anything substantial content wise in quite a while. The missions ended up being a tutorial/story rerun through the first two tiers, with a few new things sprinkled in.
The new content will hit and the F2P players will basically be playing the same game they were months ago. I've already dialed back my activity, and many others I know are hardly on nearly as frequently. With a common remark - "Be back when there is more content."
They are set on trying something new for making revenue. Wait and see I guess.
This has to be some pretty big and amazing content though to consider buying it. Curious to see the pricing they go with, and what you get.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 22:35
#149
@ Wuvvums
"No. That's mostly
@ Wuvvums
"No. That's mostly because I think it's alright to change a planned price before the transaction is complete. Now if I bought that cookie while it was 50 cents but you decided I owed you $10 that would be fraudulent and a scam. I am not going to get hung up about it mostly because they haven't done anything to dupe us on the prices yet, they just changed the payment plan.
You can try and make this a moral outrage but they haven't named any prices yet to begin with."
Well, what about Knights like me, who purchased CE only recently in anticipation of these expansion missions? I thought now would be a good time to buy because of the 15% bonus and the expansions hopefully coming out soon. It IS lying, because now if I want the expansions, I will have to basically pay double, and I sure as hell am not getting a refund. I thought expansions were going to cost CE - LIKE THEY SAID.
Mon, 02/27/2012 - 22:39
#150
Oh wow. I'm the OP and I was
Oh wow. I'm the OP and I was just about to happily call it a day, when I had a hunch and decided to check back the thread and see if I would have gotten an official response. Well, color me surprised indeed. And to be honest, a bit disappointed. :( What bothers me the most is why they backed off on their original announcement.
Well, at the very least, now I know that what I originally thought was a big mess-up (That is, associating my account with Steam) will actually enable the possibility for me to get an Expansion Pack as part of a trade, so it's not completely off-limits for an "almost-F2P" like me. Steam doesn't like my CC, so it's a rather messy process for me to get CE, and Elevator Passes are out of question too. Now this...
At least, if you're going to make it this way, could you make Elevator Passes tradeable via Steam too? That'd be nice. But probably best left for a different thread.
I quite agree that expansion missions need to be added with new free content.
New content being levels like Blades of the Fallen, hopefully bigger. Blades of the Fallen has a new, interesting experience, something which we really hadn't seen before. I would love to see more levels of it, with an actual miniboss.
New content could also mean something simple such a miniboss level like Stygian Steeds, but for Auroura Isles, Scarlet Fortress or Jigsaw Valley. Preferably, an entirely new set of such unique levels.