Nick,

The one thing that I have always said to sell friends on this game is that you can do EVERYTHING in the game without paying real money. Because of this philosophy, I have spent quite a bit of money on this game to support it. However, this looks like the first step on a long road that leads to games like "Perfect World", games that make themselves truly enjoyable only to those that spend lots of money. While I would never expect OOO to plan something like this, once you head down this road it is a slippery slope, one with no clear end in sight. Why not make it purchasable with CE only after a player has completed some requirements (which would be of the developers choosing)? For example, perhaps these expansion missions are only available to people who have completed all the "Rank" missions, and have beaten all of the bosses (perhaps a Shadow Lair or two). By doing this, you encourage people to purchase CE, but still allow the most truly devoted players to obtain it strictly with in game money. Many players would still buy CE to buy things like shadow keys to allow them to meet these requirements, or may purchase CE to buy the actual Expansion mission packs. People who want to advance further into the game spend money; most average players spend money on the specials (such as the dragon wings, I know I've done both).

My plea to you Nick is this, don't ruin the reputation of this game. I already know that many people wouldn't buy the Expansion mission packs simply on a matter of principle. People who cannot justify buying a game come to Spiral Knights. I NEVER thought that was going to still be playing this game this long, or nearly as intensely as I have. I LOVE this game, partly because I can bring anyone into it. You don't have an excuse to NOT try this game, it is 100% free after all! Don't taint the wonderful thing that is Spiral Knights, please.

On behalf of the Spiral Knights Community,

-Kanz of In the Jelly

You said what I feel.

@Eltia lol in PSO Ultimate mode mostly everything will 2hit you if you're careless and don't resist that damage type

Point.
I haven't played PSO since death of Dreamcast and so I missed Episode 2-4.... might check those on some free server as replacement *drools*

The biggest selling point of SK is rather than barring premium content with money, premium content is barred with time (crowns earned from mist energy used to buy CE). From a purely monetary point of view, on a local scale SK truly is free to play. I have a large assortment of 5* equipment and have played all the Shadow Lairs, and have never paid a dime to do so. (On a global scale SK is not free to play, since someone has to buy CE; however, this isn't the main point of my argument.) This accessibility is incredible, and players buy energy with money not because they are forced to, but because they want to.

The pay-only Expansion is a giant slap in the face that completely shuts down this notion. If it were released as "Purchase with Energy", you would still get many people buying energy for the express purpose of accessing the Expansion. It would also work to release Expansions as purchasable with Energy OR direct purchase, which gives you a discount- i.e. if it costs 2500CE to unlock, the direct-purchase price might be $5. As Perronius, Kanz and others mentioned, I will be sad to see Spiral Knights lose the "100% free to play" title. I will (probably) continue playing, but each such update makes me less likely to recommend SK to a friend, and if I were a paying player, reduces the odds that I would pay money in the future. It certainly makes me less inclined to every spend money on SK. While it is true that life (and SK) will carry on (I have little doubt this update will be "successful" from a financial standpoint), to me and many others, SK will lose some of the sparkle that made it special.

If you have a Steam account, then you shouldn't even be worried about it being $$$ only because you can just purchase the missions from a credit card warrior (as a gift) in return for an appropriate amount of CE via Steam trading, which is legal activity since you CAN trade for CE in steam trades... so yeah. Get Steam and profit?

Bingo, Njthug. If they can get the system set up, then it will be perfect. No need for everyone to fret so darn much over this, right? I probably won't have the cash for the packs, or if I do, then I'll sell them for CE via Steam Trades.

I've already seen that comment. It's not like I go TL;DR on the whole topic. Still, there's no need to fret about it. It's not like they're going to completely alienate the non-Steam players.

That and Steam doesn't take up much RAM at all... maybe like 100MB of RAM, which is tiny. Spiral Knights uses far more RAM than Steam does, so there's no point in bringing up the "system not good enough" argument. As for personal reasons, I won't argue that, though I've never seen a reason to not like Steam. It's a good platform from which to launch all of my games, whether they be on Steam or not.

Anyhoo, I'm sure they'll get everyone taken care of. No need to fret... yet.

Although it may not be contributing anything worthwhile to the discussion, I just want to commend everybody on maintaining the maturity level throughout the thread. Even those who came in angry eventually calmed down and began discussing with other people. It's a real rarity among game communities to see that.

I'd be fine with the Expansion Packs costing money if it was just a group of silly levels, but the Crimson Order? Ugh.
With all the plot build up about Gremlins and the mysterious Crimson Order, the cost of money feels like OOO gave me a ladder to climb only to punch my F2P face back down.
I haven't spent any money on this game and I want it to stay that way, dangit. :/

"Our first will feature some mission rewards that we feel are worth the price of admission alone"
I really hope those 'awesome' rewards won't include some OP weapon that everybody is gonna start using in Lockdown,
'cause now that I think about it, LD is one of the few reasons I still play this game.

One way that I've heard (and support) is to make the entry requirement similar to the test server, i.e. accessible to people who have spent X amount of money in the past Y days. That way, the price of entry is still a real money purchase but lets players play without having to purchase only missions, and it encourages rather than forces both F2P and P2P players into buying the ticket into the mission. However, with this route I would probably propose a time limit, say 30 days from your last purchase. Perhaps even both payment types could be implemented, so that the time limit version would be like a demo, and it would give players a choice on whether or not they want to "keep" the missions.

Just a thought.

I think what bothers me most is that I perceive that as sort of... reckless. I guess the reason why it's not planned to let us purchase those expansions directly with CE is, that that would be easier for the players so most would use that option... but it wouldn't register as a "purchase" and thus would not help bumping that "DLC" into whatever steam top lists there are. That "attitude" makes me doubt that it'll even be made available from the energy depot (those sales also don't register I guess) for nonsteam players or if that doesn't happen now, it might any time later... And I certainly won't bind a cross-platform game to a platform-dependant software that is otherwise useless for me and has a certain "maintenance" needs, just so I can help a game that I already "donated" for with its marketing campaign for free. Things like that make me feel used. And the possibility that I won't be able to spend the ingame currency to buy those expansions makes me feel betrayed and insecure about whether it's even good idea to purchase anything in the future.

Nick has said, the Mission Packs will be steam tradeable, also they can be gifted.... So why does does 3 rings not make them a bind on use object that can only be obtained with a purchase like Dragon Wings, Stranger Hats, Love Auras, Rose sets etc (This is a successful model, and I have heard no complaints over it). If the packs can be gifted, why not in game tradable the trade system is there to protect players.

I assume shadow lairs, and lift passes were "dry runs" of different payment models, the problem with additional content is it normal purchased by experenced players, these are the same players who have lots of CE, so a CE payment would not bring in new money to compensate 3 rings for the work it has done.

Also consider throwing in a 7 day lift pass with the mission pack, as it seem a bit tight, to make someone pay for the missions then make them pay the energy costs for gates. This way they would get a few days to enjoy the new content, before it back to normal.

Nick you have stated that there are 3 different tier versions with different rewards, will everyone be able to do which tiers they want? I am already a 5* Defender will that mean I can only play the Tier 3 version.

Also could you bring the packs out by mid march so I can have them for my birthday :-)

steam is free and you can sync your account
Stop that already!
Steam is NOT "free". It comes with a commitment to run that software every time you want to play the game. This commitment can not be undone and it also includes...:
- Having to get involved with a third party and becoming aware of their commercials, promotions, TOS updates etc. That equals "generated money which I see none of myself although it causes at least minor inconvenience to me"
- Permanently becoming unable to play the game on platforms that are not supported by steam
- Being forced to deal with potential future issues that are caused by steam, possibly increasing maintenance time for your machine depending on how you're using it
... and stuff like that.

Don't get me wrong, it's fine for people that use steam anyway, it can be a useful piece of software and for many steam on itself might already be more important than a single game like SK. But others don't use steam and wouldn't use it for anything else - for those it's definitely not a case of "just install [x] its free!". One of the reasons why I chose this game here in the first place was that I didn't feel like it was trying to "force me to do stuff I might not want to do"... like grinding (could just play slowly or spend money)... spending money (could just play slowly... or be especially clever + work with the ingame economy :3)... even installing the game to play it looked entirely optional (webstart is great)l. Well, lets just say: much seems to have changed. I'm aware that most of the changes probably are good for something, but that doesn't mean I have to like where the game's priorities seem to be heading.

Anyway... I'm looking forward to playing the new content. Just not sure when that will be and how... who of my guild mates/friends I will be able to play it with by then...maybe it's a good time to take a break until everything turned out fine somehow and everyone else somehow already managed to get those expansions + possible "community division troubles" are already over.

Despite the way he presents himself, he actually has a point.

Not trying to attack P2P players but if you keep using irl money to support greedy dev actions then OOO won't ever feel like they have to change.

and this is coming from a guy who bought 20750 CE, 2 elevator passes, and both the starter and battle pack.

When it comes out I'm sure it will be every bit worth your money

Honestly, what are you guys expecting...9.99 DLC? It's not an expansion pack it's like 5 new levels at the least

Honestly, they're not going to make it an additional purchase for less than $5, you can expect it will be something like .99c~$1.99 per individial mission with whole packs costing $5~$10.

Considering Silver Keys are $2.49 for a random chance at an optional, cosmetic item, I can only imagine with the total cost of all these missions will be once they're all released.

TL;DR at the bottom

I watched the Extra Credits video, and found it to be spot-on with nearly all of its points. That's informing my post right now.

At some point during the process, OOO decided that they were going to charge real money, rather than CE for the Crimson Hammer map pack. Many knights have pointed out Nick's switch before, and I'd like to add my own confusion to the matter.

I've been playing on and off for about a year now; yes, ever since Spiral Knights went free to play. It was a fun and convenient distraction from my actual life, and I remained F2P since ME provided a convenient limiting factor to boot me out of the game and back to work. However, I was pleased with my steady (however slow) rate of progress through the game. I could eventually see myself running through FireStorm Citadel with my 5* gear, effectively the Endgame at the time. However, my interest (and time available to play) waned to the point where I stopped for about six months.

Coming back into the game, I rolled up a new knight to see what changes were made to the whole experience. Imagine my surprise when I saw the Shadow Keys and, moreover, the rather hefty cost for a one use, one run pass. I was used to grinding for boss token and crowns, but this seemed beyond my ability and time commitment to the game. Earning roughly 100 to 200 CE per day, I couldn't see myself going on one Shadow Lair run anytime soon, let alone all four, and certainly not repeating any, as I had earlier boss tiers. Even worse, given the perceived difficulty spike, I could see myself wiping, disconnecting, or otherwise "wasting" my key and about a month of playtime. I decided Shadow Lairs simply were not for me. That was fine, though; I still had to get to Vanaduke and had a mess of gameplay content to wade through.

Now, with the Crimson Hammer update coming out SOON, I'm a little torn. Brand new content? Yes please. A new type of pay wall beyond what players can earn through gameplay? Many players have voiced their concern with this new direction, and I'll add my voice to the chorus. I purchased an Elevator Pass (today!) because I wanted to EARN my way to higher levels of play. Along with the feeling of self-satisfaction, I can safely say that I have seen my own skill levels rise. Players with better gear than myself have wiped themselves out with shoddy play tactics, and I have to admit that it feels good to be visibly playing better. That's why I bought the Pass; it provided convenience (saving my energy for crafting) rather than a shortcut to endgame content. That shortcut was still there, if I would CHOOSE to take it, but I decided to work my way up the ladder.

I realize the many complexities that involve the global market of energy, which means someone has to pay for the rest of us to play, but this is a different animal. Has anyone noticed that threads complaining about CE prices or suggestions for how players (the real drivers of the economy) to "fix" the market have fallen off the map in favor of complaints about specific "pay walls", including Shadow Keys and this new expansion?

Here's my point: this business decision robs player of their agency. Players have no individual choice about how to access this content; it is quite clearly behind a wall of money, and not CE. Gifting these passes is a nice gesture by the devs, but it completely short-circuits the mechanism of personal achievement that many players, paid and free alike, have set up in their mind. I don't want to pay to play, I want to play in order to play MORE. That was what was so ingenious about the individual CE market and ME regen rates.

While I've raised the subject, gifting seems like a contrived and hilariously problematic "solution" to pay walls. The mere ability for this to happen will invite scams, beggars, and service tickets, as we've already seen with CE in general.

TL;DR: let players choose to pay rather than earn. We've already got an in-game economy, just let us use it once in a while.

It's about choice. It's not about the amount of money. It's about having to spend money at all. Many of us purchased ce... and not being able to use those purchased ce directly for something as "important" as the new content is a violation of our trust in the "currency" which we chose to purchase (or earn the hard way).

I'm excited and I have no problem with this being something that has to actually be bought with money. I just hope that they get the client based gifting system out so more people can play.

Someone suggested making it tradeable so you can put it up on the auction house, that might would work without it being too expensive.

So, I think that there is a lot of complaining now but as soon as it becomes more accessible to F2P players, that it would be more appreciated. Please Nick, get that client based gifting system up soon. I strongly support it and endorse it. I'm sure many others will/do as well.

your TL;DR is wrong
i was correcting it

Oh and the world is going to end of May of last year.

asu, nick said that the pack is giftable through steam. If you have steam it is, essentially, something you can trade. Just be patient. They aren't going to keep it exactly like this forever. They will change it according to what they see the needs are in the community. You may not feel like they do that, but they get data and they see all the hard facts of what people really do.

People will complain here, but how many will actually bust out a card and buy it? hmm..... we'll find out. I know I'll buy it depending on the cost. :D

Agreed

P2P only weapons are pure BS. On top of that, its OP as hell. Pure elemental sword? WOW. Pure shadow blast bomb? WOW.
Im sooooo not looking forward to fighting with people in LD with these. This is worse than toothpick strikers........

I'll have to agree with Shoebox on this one: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/45284?page=2#comment-294355
It's not that I can't pay the price. I simply refuse to support this model, for I think it's ridiculous.
The price is also hilarious considering what we get in terms of content. The biggest incentive I'd guess are the weapons that a lot of people have wanted for a long time. Making the deal basically "pay for these awesome weapons that you can't get anywhere else". This is something you should never do in any F2P game if you know what you're doing.

Also I invite Nick to make a list of the future content that will or will not be P2P, so I know weather SK will become something more than a chat client (one without tabs yet).