Spiral Knights - Heavy Pierce "Sword" Concept: The Spiral Joust

Heavy Pierce "Sword" Concept: The Spiral Joust

39 replies [Last post]

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 00:08

Zopyros-Il

There's been some discussion of creating a heavy pierce sword here on the suggestions forums, as well as the need for spears/lances to be introduced. So, I present to you my solution for both of these problems, with my own spin on the idea of course:

The Spiral Joust
http://pixelhat.tumblr.com/image/37967920887

Combo: Would use the same animations as the Flourish's second and third hit in its combo, however much more slowly. There would still be a step taken between the hits and the majority of the attack would be directly forward. To balance out its precision and slowness a little, it would still hit things a little bit to the side of the thrust.

Charge Attack: A two stage attack. First hit would use a sped up animation of the Troika line charge attack, but would keep the Knight rooted in place. This hit would interrupt nearly all attacks and "stun" monsters without giving them the actual status, setting up the next strike.
The second hit would boost the Knight forward, cutting a swathe through the monsters in front of them and scattering them. This attack would have the possibility of striking multiple times against an immobile target, but due to the need of charging and executing the first strike, may be too risky to pull off in most situations. This second hit would use a lengthened version of the Flourish's final combo animation.

Names: Something I hadn't really thought about, but here goes...
3* - Spiral Joust
4* - Reinforced Joust
5* - Rhongomiant <= spear of King Arthur

If there were to be 5* variants with different status effects similar to the Flourishes:
Gáe Buide (“Yellow Shaft”) - Stun effect
Gáe Derg (“Red Javelin”) - Fire effect
The names come from mythological Celtic spears.

Stats: Admittedly, stats aren't really my area of forte. :/
Strength wise, it would have to be as powerful, if not even more, than the DA, GF, and Troika lines. This is due to its narrow attack range when compared to the other heavy swords. Plus, I'm not sure what would work better, split normal/pierce or pure pierce. Hopefully someone can come up with something better.
EDIT: Split normal/pierce is better. Wish I was smart enough to figure that out on my own... >__>

---------------

I feel kind of awkward posting this while there are other heavy pierce sword and spear/lance threads out there, but I don't feel replying and posting in those threads would get the same amount of discussion going as creating my own thread for this idea. Especially since a lot of said threads consist of one sentence "ideas" that don't help to really suggest anything.
Well, that's my hope anyway. Let me know what you guys think.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 00:27

Zaffy-Laffy

Poke +1

A heavy sword for piercing sounds fine, poke poke
Now i can stab thunderbog :p

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 00:40

Severage

...

First of all, a Heavy or Slow piercing sword will be hardly more than useless in PvE, because every enemy that is weak to piercing is fast.

Strength wise, it would have to be as powerful, if not even more, than the DA, GF, and Troika lines. This is due to its narrow attack range when compared to the other heavy swords. Plus, I'm not sure what would work better, split normal/pierce or pure pierce. Hopefully someone can come up with something better.

There is no, and I mean absolutely no reason to make any weapon pure pierce. The reason why FF is so overpowered in LD is due to its pure piercing. Having a pure-pierce heavy weapon with the strength of a Sealed? You couldn't destroy balance any more than that.

Pure of a stat does two things:

1: Due to split defenses in gear, makes it OP in LD.
2: Due to not having any normal damage, makes the enemies its weak on be VERY weak. I.E. Brandish Vs Gremlin might do 40 instead of 80 damage, Flourish Vs Lumber might do 12 instead of 80 damage.

I hate to say no to such great art and concept, but I see no point in it other than making another Lockdown Juggernaut weapon.

~Sev

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 01:01

Psychodestroyer

"You couldn't destroy balance any more than that."

My Super-mecha suit with mounted arm cannons and hand-sheathed laser blades dealing all damage types on high countering-idiot troll-suggestion begs to differ.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 01:03

Severage

@Psycho:

I see your super-mecha suit with mounted arm cannons and hand-sheathed laser blades dealing all damage types on high counter-idiot-troll-suggestion, and I ask you...

Wouldn't having all damage types make it weak to everything in this game, just like it did the Argent Peacemaker?

~Sev

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 01:05

Psychodestroyer

Not if it dealt Max damage in all instances.

The depowering wouldn't even register.

YEAH.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 01:25

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

@Severage
That is true about the pierce-susceptible enemies being very quick. They would probably be able to dodge the blows of something so slow. Though I'm not 100% convinced, since I use a Triglav myself and can still manage to hit the fast little buggers. Also, there's the Callahan which is also a little slow to start up, but is still considered useful for those types of enemies (Don't have one myself, so I can't say from personal experience. Been watching gameplay footage of it though).
I see your point though, and its attack speed will need some testing and adjustments to make it actually viable. Still, it would play differently than the other heavy swords (if only a little bit) and we do need some new weapons to keep the game fresh.

As for the Lockdown aspect, that was an oversight on my part. I rarely ever play Lockdown, so when I think up things, I don't really balance them according to it. Though at the moment, I also don't see much reason to properly balance them for LD since most, if not all, of the playerbase considers the game's balance broken anyways. If OOO gives LD some love and balances it out, then I'll probably get into the mindset of balancing for it.
This thing would be tremendously OP in LD if it were implemented though. And most fixes that I can think of (slow down swing speed, lower attack, etc.) would be countered by Wolver buffs and trinkets.

I will change my post to make the Joust split Pierce/Normal. I checked the wiki and compared the damage output of the DA and Warmaster Rocket Hammer. Having it split makes it more versatile and still somewhat usable against monsters that are resistant, but having it pure doesn't increase the damage output by a huge amount. It's still noticeable, though.

If you can think of anything to help balance it out better, I'd be happy to hear it. Especially if it comes to LD, since you seem to know a lot more about its mechanics than I do. Really should play it myself once in a while...

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 02:53

Severage

...

Well sure, you *can* kill fiends with a Blitz needle, but a final flourish works much better.

All I'm saying is, this will only be used for LD. If you're going to the CW, just use a FF. I don't really see a great reason to use this for the CW, because in most cases a FF will be more effective.

In my personal opinion, I think we need more mid-speed swords. Currently, with only a few exceptions, we either have really fast or really slow swords. While it wouldn't really make sense to use a Lance in any way other than slowly (When you have leverage against you in real life, the things are HARD to maneuver), a piercing welterweight sword might work. It might be counter-intuitive to move a large object more quickly than a DA, yet have lower damage despite its size though.

I wouldn't worry about factoring in what LD players can do with trinkets etc....just focus on how it compares with the other Lockdown Juggernauts.

By the by, while pure damage doesn't hardly increase its damage in PvE, it makes a very noticeable difference in PvP. This is the only reason FF/BTBs are used.

~Sev

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 03:33

Hexzyle

A scythe or a mace-like

A scythe or a mace-like weapon would be a much better grounds for a slow piercing sword, IMO. Slow swords are advantageous in their wide swings, not always in their long reach.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 10:00

Luguiru

The art is nice great but otherwise this is the same as every spear/lance/pike/pokey-thing-on-a-stick: the love child of Flourish and Troika.

The armor looks really gudd. Consider making that the focus. Something king of tankish but with a little sword charge.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 14:18

#10

Klipik

How is this OP in LD

if it has no swing arc? you have to be super accurate to do any damage.

@hex: like we said before, scythes are overpowered.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 14:27

#11

Severage

@Klipik:

Two words:

AT Rage.

Just like "combo-spammers" in LD who pull off magical 90% hit rates, this would be the same.

~Sev

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 15:30

#12

Klipik

What if we make it like autogun, so you can't turn mid-combo?

EDIT: I like the armor too.

Sat, 12/15/2012 - 16:21

#13

Severage

@Klipik:

Okay, sure, but now you just changed it from powerful in LD and slightly-useful in PvE to plausible in LD and useless in PvE.

Also, Autoguns can't spin in mid-combo, but they can spin prior to the 2nd attack, if you're not using charge attacks.

Currently, it'd only be used on Maulos (He's weak to pierce, right?) and LD. Seems like suicide to use it on fiends.

~Sev

Sun, 12/16/2012 - 01:31

#14

Hexzyle

Exactly why you need to swing

Exactly why you need to swing the weapon, not poke it. All monsters that are weak to piercing are fast, so swinging it is the only way to actually get anywhere with it.

@Klipik
If the scythe is overpowered, then nerf it.

Sun, 12/16/2012 - 15:55

#15

Zopyros-Il

Beep Beep Boop

So the general consensus here on the forums is that it would be the new LD king and generally not be worth it to bring into the Clockworks due to its speed and the speed of the enemies it's effective against. Everyone likes the armor though, which was completely unintentional.

Over on tumblr, people feel the same about it destroying LD's balance more, though someone brought up the fact that the possible UVs are what breaks the DA and GF, and possibly the Joust as well, more than their general power. A few people are more interested in just having a new weapon to play with and think that we'll grow into it. There was also a suggestion of literally making it a "Spiral" Joust and going Tengen Toppa with its design... I wholly agree with that sentiment.

Is there any way this weapon could be salvaged? Toning it's attack speed, increasing attack radius, adding buffs or debuffs, etc.?
As much as a scythe or mace would work better for wide swings, I personally don't think they fit as well visually with the Knights' arsenal as a spear, lance, halberd, or joust. I guess I could try to make it work though...
And I might try to add in the armor into that whole Armor Redesign thing I have going. It'll be hard though because of how that particular jousting helmet works (in that it was designed for the wearer's head not to move at all), but I'll see.

Sun, 12/16/2012 - 16:23

#16

Grittle

Mon, 05/11/2015 - 06:54

#17

Quaquonfaes

There's a reason weapons work how they do on their damage type.

Elemental enemies are slow, heavy and sometimes immobile, and to accommodate most elemental swords slow heavy hitting weapons (i.e. hammer, DA).

Pierce enemies are fast and flexible and so are the pierce swords, because if they weren't they would be a pain to use against their designated target (Ever tried fighting wolvers and devilites with a troika?).

Shadow enemies are a mix of both, with moderate speed and damage and so shadow weapons are more varied.

A "heavy" pierce sword just wouldn't work.

Mon, 05/11/2015 - 15:41

#18

Gyrruss

@Ellthan

Except that as a main Heavy-Sword user I've had absolutely no problem killing a mass of devilites with my troika, let alone beasts. You also forgot the brandish lines which are much more versatile in what they do, dealing split normal/elemental damage. Gremlins are relatively annoying to kill due to their AI and their ability to dash out of your range at will, and the only Shadow swords are two brandishes, and a heavy sword, which are mid to slow weapons.

I fail to see your point.

The whole argument about "things that are weak to X are Y so it wouldn't work" is irrelevant because you wouldn't just launch yourself onto a huge mob and expect to kill everything by button-mashing without the slightest sense of strategy. A pierce heavy sword would deal massive amounts of damage to whatever is weak to it, diminishing the need to chase after it or having to keep relocating yourself/the enemy every three or so swings. You could, you know, be smart about what you're doing before doing whatever it is you're gonna do.

Also now given that Acheron has had "the" buff, LD would no longer be an issue. Because it'd still be slower than most weapons coupled with the shrunken hitbox would make it harder to use and easier to telegraph the attack, but much more rewarding when you do get to land the hit(s).

Also, nice necro. :P

Mon, 05/11/2015 - 21:24

#19

Dahall

OP is a very cool guy, he draws things and doesn't afraid of anything.

shame he is kill.

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 20:36

#20

Blandaxt

oh shoot!

Now i remeber who my nemesis was. Dam psychodestroyer. Arghh, why did i have to get a reminder of him. Sigh.....

Anyway nice art that guy drew. I would have done a bit more tweak on the 5 star to make it more spiral attractive, but amazing art again. Now for the actual idea itself, i like the idea of a heavy piercing weapon, but i do not like the charge attack and normal attack variation. For me, i would go for a wide 180 sweep in the first combo, then a deep thrust with the knight moving only one block bit hit. Thrust reaching 3 to 4 blocks long. Also the charge attack in my opinion for lancers should depend on it's status effect.

If it was fire, i would create a huge booster on the back handle and a fire hose snout on the side of the lance. This way the charge would consist of the player reving up the lance like a motercycle. This reving up would create a small but noticeable aoe fire wave attack that has small push back and puts monsters near the player on fire. And lastly sense the rev up is so slow, the actual charge would be incredably fast Where the player is boosted really fast towards the direction he chose. The player would be going the speed of a callahan charge bullet or faster and also has the piercing power ability of the callahan bullet and pushback of the monster dreadnaught. I also suggest while the player is reving up the weapon, for them to still be able to rotate their night and change the direction of the charge. Towards the end of the charge, the night would grind his feet on the floor to come to a halt, this friction between the floor and the knight's feet would sound like how a motercycle's wheels skid on the ground when it stops at high speed. This action would also leave a fire trail behind the knight charge course burning everything that could potentially be behind the knight. This action would also flinch anyone behind the knight to stop/interupt any incoming attack animation. while the knight is skidding to stop himself on the ground, the lance on the knights hand will be emiting back thrusters towards the front to slow the speed of the knight even further and enable him to stop, bit this will also cause a wave of fire to be launched towards the front of the knight to burn any remaing enemies the night missed on his charging course. This fire wave is more similar to the fire wave of the fire gremlins, but it will also include pushback.

The fire wave will not actually damage any enemies, but it will catch them on fire and push them away from the knight. This is the 5 star fire status envision of the lance weapon. In my opinion, just having a different status should incorperate a whole new attack animation just to emphasize variation between weapon versions. This envision of the 5 star fire status lance weapon is based of rockets, bike engines and wheels, a flame thrower, and a lance weapon. Remember that throughout the whole charge, only the actual lance thrust will be the main damaging part of the attack. Everything else is just effects of push back, flinch and the fire status. The general player though will not see that will most likely portray all of the effects of the weapon as damage value and weapon ability. So i feel this weapon would get a lot of attention if it was created just because it has so many effects. Other non-status/status variation of the lance weapons would get a different charge animation as to emphasize again weapon variation. what do you guys think?

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 06:04

#21

Arkate

Before he left, I remember

Before he left, I remember Nick actually commented in a thread and said that the team had a lance on the table, and that they'd been considering adding it for a long time.

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 11:09

#22

Melonfish

@Arkate

That is true. There is actually an icon hidden in the game files that displays roughly the same design seen in Zophyros' concept art, however it has been the sole concrete remnant of the idea for three years now.

As for a heavy piercing weapon making no sense, let's go through this more laconically. Piercing has to do with perforation. The Flourish weapons deal pure Piercing damage thanks to their narrow and sleek shape, complimented also by their lightweight and swift movements. A large, heavy weapon designed for the same purpose would not impale a body just as easily, but that is where we should account its bulkier mass and opt for split Normal/Piercing.

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 12:06

#23

Quaquonfaes

@Ellthan

Fighting devilites with troika? I'll believe that when I see it.

As for brandish line, that's one of the reason they are op.
Fast swords that deal elemental damage. (Alongside the copout charge)

Like I said, shadow swords are varied so that point stands.

And I would like you to mention me 1 weapon that oneshots enemies. (Since you said that you wouldn't have to chase after enemies).

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 12:31

#24

Melonfish

Re: mention me one weapon that oneshots enemies

My first guess would be the Ban Stick.

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 12:50

#25

Fangel

Can we include charge attacks?

I've seen acheron charges one-shot enemies, without max damage bonuses either (high bonus from... places).

I do agree that a slow piercing sword is unneeded. It would primarily be used for lockdown and wolvers, however wolvers can be cleared using any wide-sweeping sword (troika, sealed sword lines, flourish), so it's not a surprise it would have a partial niche... If it had a wide swing.
Piercing-weak enemies are either stupidly predictable (beasts) or jumpy like a druggie passing a cop car (fiends). That being said, when fighting fiends, you need fast weapons opposed to slow ones. A good piercing weapon to be added would be if the wild hunting blade was turned to pure piercing damage. Suddenly you have a super fast and super powerful piercing weapon!

The heavy piercing sword suggested here, however, has only two hits, both of which are thrusts. Not really a heavy sword so much as a more powerful but less utility flourish. An idea for a lance I've had before was that the first swipe would be a lunge (like a flourish third hit), second would be an uppercut. Uppercut can either be straight up in the air, or a slash from left to right. This would be more of a help with beasts than fiends, other than maybe gorgos.

If we can get a lance with a combo like I described, it would prove useful for sure, alongside the buff/change to the WHB. This would allow for more combat options, making the flourish act like a middleman. Heck, we could also nerf flourish lines to have less range with the addition of a long range piercing sword.

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 12:53

#26

Quaquonfaes

Archeron maxed only oneshots on normal/advanced (easy mode that you shouldn't play seriously).

I got max damage bonus vs gremlins and I still need 2 hits to kill the weakest ones on elite.

Tue, 05/12/2015 - 13:26

#27

Fangel

Hmm.

Well, if you have a damage orb, at even later depths on elite you can kill a weak monster in one blow. I've reliably killed gremlin knockers with max damage + damage orb on elite, can't remember what depth however.

Regardless, a piercing heavy sword reskin of say, a troika or sealed sword would not work. Reskinning the second two hits of a flourish is not good either. Having the first hit be a thrust and the second one being a knockback/knockdown like attack with a wide range would make this weapon fill a niche that isn't just "troika but better vs beasts".

Thu, 05/14/2015 - 22:50

#28

Hexzyle

I believe a pierce sword is needed.

You guys are coming at this from the wrong angle. You're thinking "what could a heavy pierce sword do that the fast pierce swords don't already?"
If we used this mentality for everything, there would only be 1 sword, gun, and bomb for every damage type. The idea here is for versatility and choice.
Do we need Flourish, Flamberge, Rigadoon, and Snarble Barb when they all do the same thing, except with minor tweaks? Probably not, but the choice is nice.

When you arrange all equipment by families of weapons dealing the same damage, you end up with:

Piercing Swords (1)
Elemental Bombs (2)*
Shadow Bombs (2)
Piercing Bombs (2)
Shadow Swords (2)
Normal Swords (4)
Elemental Swords (4)
Elemental Guns (4)
Normal Bombs (5)**
Normal Guns (5)
Piercing Guns (5)
Shadow Guns (7)

*Counting Voltaic Tempest as an elemental bomb
**Counting Ash of Agni as a normal damage bomb

Thu, 05/14/2015 - 08:11

#29

Blandaxt

nice rack

Nice job counting al the different variations of weapons hexzyle, you are so right that we need to have different types of weapons. Here is a thread you may have missed that includes ideas about mid-range to long range weapons:

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/106853

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/40855

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/97659

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/55424

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/50 <- Nick (though nothing too important)

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/83748

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/3783

These threads is basically showing ideas and the yearn feeling that players have towards having a lance/spear weapon variation of the flourish or any other weapon variation .

Thu, 05/14/2015 - 10:32

#30

Fangel

Technically...

Technically mist bombs and the elemental shard bomb are two different attack styles... But yes, piercing swords really only have one option and elemental bombs have no real practical option. As I stated, a piercing cutter + a piercing sort of dreadnaut-like spear would be wonderful.

Thu, 05/14/2015 - 22:43

#31

Hexzyle

@Fangel

Okay, I'll count Voltaic Tempest as an elemental damage bomb, but none of the others count as elemental damage bombs. Their elemental component doesn't deliver damage easily over a large area. The Ash of Agni could be counted as a normal damage bomb since it works against all monsters equally (bar Ice Cubes, Lumbers, and Undead) but none of the others do because they don't deal damage.

Fri, 05/15/2015 - 12:30

#32

Fangel

Yeah...

I mean, the bombs do deal very minimal damage (such that you shouldn't use them as AoE bombs, which is sorta the point of bombs), and all mist bombs do deal elemental damage, just not over a very large spread. Perhaps I'm just pulling a Larry, but regardless, a larger affected area for elemental damage would be wonderful.

Fri, 07/03/2015 - 02:19

#33

Ed-Efnek

+10

Nice idea like it. Please loook my idea too for a better gameing http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/110755

Mon, 07/06/2015 - 17:36

#34

Xigno

/sigh

Lances have always been one of my favourite type of weapons in almost every game I played... this would have been a great, great idea, (the concept art also looks very cool) and it's nice to read that nick and the developers were actually considering adding a lance to the game (post#21), but after all this is three years old thread, and nick left almost two years ago...

Mon, 07/06/2015 - 16:13

#35

Dinosaurvista

Looks too much like a normal type sword. Blue + grey = normal.

You should make the lights more yellow or white, and the metal a goldish-grey, like final flourish.

Tue, 07/07/2015 - 00:34

#36

Hexzyle

Looks too much like a normal type sword. Blue + grey = normal.
...final flourish.

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/File:Final_Flourish-Equipped.png

Tue, 07/07/2015 - 07:04

#37

Dinosaurvista

Do you even read bruh

"You should make the lights more yellow or white, and the metal a goldish-grey, like final flourish."

Wed, 07/08/2015 - 04:36

#38

Hexzyle

You said that blue and grey were "normal type" colors. Then you linked a piercing blue and grey weapon. I thought that was ironic.

Wed, 07/08/2015 - 15:06

#39

Dinosaurvista

I always associated FF of having a mix of gold steel and white lights. Really, there is hardly any blue on FF - the light is tiny and calling the other colored metal a blueish grey is cutting it close (in-game it looks a lot less blueish than the preview).

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Heavy Pierce "Sword" Concept: The Spiral Joust