Spiral Knights - Greavers STILL cheat! (this topic applies to ARENAS ONLY!!! Please stop implying I can't kill a single lone greaver)

Greavers STILL cheat! (this topic applies to ARENAS ONLY!!! Please stop implying I can't kill a single lone greaver)

315 replies [Last post]

Thu, 09/05/2013 - 20:27

#301

Linux-Bomber

Cats are illogical.

Draycos has spoken ( an awful bunch too.)

You may now leave the building.

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 09:48

#302

Batabii

@voza
Nothing has worked so far, which already proves my point that they're OP in arenas. No enemy should be this obscenely difficult to counter without dying.

@draycos
1. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they magically change tactics for only one person?

2. No, you acted like it was a universal fact. The line in bold specifically. My example was a METAPHOR, it wasn't meant to be an exact comparison. You may not get "muscle fatigue", but you do get mental fatigue, even if it takes just a SECOND longer you're still making it harder. I could have used a different example, like rolling a coin a certain distance.

4. I'm not "relying" on chance. I'm saying it can happen, and it's not something you can 100% prevent.

5. They hit you whether you're moving or not. The only requisite is that their attack reaches you. And when you're surrounded by enemies and projectiles, you can't always consciously dodge every single thing. That's like saying "how can you ever take damage from spikes?" It doesn't make you a bad player.

6. If you say so. By "enemy" I was moreso referring to mecha knights, but there's a LOT of enemies with misleading, variable, and even glitchy hitboxes.

Uh yeah it's more like saying "I can make spaghetti, so I can make spaghetti sauce". They're not the SAME, but they're very related. And it's clearly not me. I don't see why only having a problem with ONE spawn suddenly makes me a "terrible player". Especially with how rarely I use sparks.

8. Well I just don't see what you mean by "the right time". About half the time I run toward them when they're dashing, they just spin around and hit me anyway (not to say I can't shield but still). I'll look into it, because most of the time I just shock/stun the hell out of them or corner them to death anyway. My point was not that I can't deal with them, but that they're extremely unpredictable and dangerous in groups compared to, say, zombies.

I don't see why you complain about bombs making mecha knights too easy, but ignore the fact that using bombs on kats is almost as easy. They still have "aggressive counterplay" if you want it, just use a sword. Heck, even with bombs I still mix it up with gran faust etc.

Gremlins, even thwackers, kind of mill around if they aren't immediately next to you, which is why sentenza is so disappointing (hits their shields). Mecha knights will generally come at you from anywhere in the arena. And zombies/retrodes are too slow and unfocused to really count. Devilites for sure though, WILL come running at you from across the map once you have their attention, and scuttlebots and lumbers tend to make a beeline, but they're very slow and have no range. I'm not talking "move in your general direction", I mean "Continously mob you from great distances at a good clip".

No. Elite mode already gave all the other enemies a buff. We don't need to make them ALL unwinnable. If you want some kind of "insane" difficulty, go beat some shadow lairs in proto gear.

I already said I tried DBB. They hit me regardless.

MSI does nothing to greavers, and Mercurial (Demo) set is too expensive for dealing with a single enemy.
I don't have shadow cloak or backfire barrier, and raising a Maskeraith/Drakon that high will take a LOT of time, money, and mats.
Angelic aura doesn't even last long enough to kill a single greaver, and again, should not be necessary. Remember, that's a level 50 skill there.
Aim, nothing, even when I had my back to a corner I'd still get hit every time. Maybe not by all twelve, but at least one, and that's all that matters.
That just ain't right!
No, it's really not. It's about greavers spawning in insane numbers that they're not supposed to. And I'm moving this to Bug Reports like I should have a long time ago.

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 10:50

#303

Zeddy

"I already said I tried DBB. They hit me regardless."

Okay, now try using timing. If you plant the bomb the moment greavers spawn, you will interrupt them. If you plant the next bomb just before your previous one explodes, you will interrupt them again. You shouldn't be getting hit by greavers whatsoever if you use DBB right. The only worry is mecha knights, zombies, devilites and kats.

"and again, should not be necessary. Remember, that's a level 50 skill there."

Yes, a T3 skill to deal with a T3 optional arena. Imagine that.

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 14:25

#304

Venomousbiohazard

@Zeddy

actually, 75=t3. So "Yes, a T2 skill to deal with a T3 optional arena. Imagine that.

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 14:29

#305

Zeddy

4* also counts as T3. But yes, your sprite is not technically up to spec in stratum 6 unless it's level 75 or higher.

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 19:17

#306

Draycos

/e spontaneously combusts.

1. Just because you can't do it right doesn't mean they change tactics. (and by this point, I'm certain you just ain't doin' it right.)

2. Because it is universal: like I said in the last post, from everyone I've asked, either people do care about it negatively or they just don't care. It's bad design, and you really can't argue with that (and before you do, try to find more people who agree than disagree).

If you can't focus for more than ~20 seconds, that's not the game's problem.

That'd be an even worse example/metaphor/whatever, because rolling a coin a certain distance is entirely mechanical skill based on execution rather than continuity. You should try "writing down the same letter X amount of times". It isn't intuitive, it isn't fun, it isn't difficult, it's just redundant and boring. End of.

4. Every single attack in the game can be dodged if you approach them correctly, whether it's by gear, timing, thinking ahead, or all three. I've yet to find any situation in the game that you absolutely cannot avoid damage in, except Shadow Lairs, which are a totally different ballpark.

5. The only way you should ever take damage from a Wolver is if you're playing with party members, running about four tiles behind them, and not watching where you're going at all. They take over a second to attack in a tiny area. Taking damage from spikes -very rarely- is comparatively reasonable, because they cover a much larger area. I don't want to say any more on this one; take it or leave it.

6. Hitboxes are totally static unless you have a fluctuating connection. Misleading, I can agree with, but that just takes practice to understand.

Just because you can beat so many enemies in the game with the same tactics, because the rest of the game is so lenient, does not mean that every part of the game is so lenient. It doesn't make you a terrible player, it just means you're terrible at fighting with certain approaches, which certain enemies just so happen to require in a certain optional area. If you can't adapt when people have shown you how to, it's all your fault.

Concerning bombs vs. Kats vs. bombs vs. Mecha Knights, Mechas group themselves up and walk in linear paths so you can just keep running away dropping bombs. Kats? They fly all over the place, and can be pretty difficult to dodge as a bomber when they're attacking one after another as opposed to all at once.

8. Kats dash twice; one to move, one to bite. Stay close to them (a.k.a run into them at the "right time"), and they'll just bite a few tiles away in your direction. Obviously, if you stop moving, you'll get hit anyways since they'll stick to you (probably). And it's a darn good thing they're not as predictable as zombies- those are almost as pathetic as Wolvers. Almost.

They won't get close often if you're constantly spamming projectiles, since they're constantly going to be dodging.

By the same logic, you can stall Mecha Knights by shooting them, too. They just have a cooldown on their shield, is all. Devilites are fun though.

A) Do you have any clue what the difference between artificial and real difficulty is? Artificial = stat inflation, lowered player HP, etc. Real = smarter AI/more varied attacks/etc. Do you also understand that I never said that every difficulty should be changed? [In actuality, I want to see something like "normal"/easy = Wolver/Zombie/Scuttlebot-style AI, "hard"/normal = Retrodes, Gremlins, Mecha Knights, Lumbers, etc. and "elite"/hard = Kats, Gorgos, Devilites, Greavers, everything-else-that-poses-a-reasonable-challenge]

B) You've seen it in use, with success, and received a lot of extra advice (+1 Zeddy). Not the game's fault. If you can't see that, you're in denial.

C) -MSI doesn't boost your flat movespeed, but helps especially with gear that otherwise slows you down (charge attacks, bombs, shooting with a gun, etc.). It's not a cure-all, but it helps, therefore I listed it.
-Level 15 on a Maskeraith isn't exactly high, and the other abilities are other high-end options that still work.
-That there is just a sad display, boy.
-Greavers were appearing en masse before they got patched to Elite status, where they only spawn en masse in Arenas and very rarely otherwise. Consider that Arenas are also intended to be challenging, that two of the three fights are completely optional to continue. It's not a bug, it's completely intentional. The fact that you're complaining that you can't beat them with just any old gear when they're intended to challenge you means it's working.

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 14:48

#307

Traevelliath

Can we just let this thread die?

Kill it with fire and all that jazz

Fri, 09/06/2013 - 14:51

#308

Draycos

Since I've made all of my points and pretty much given all of the correct/sensible reason possible, yeah, I'm pretty much done regardless of what kind of reply I get.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 17:12

#309

Batabii

@zeddy
I can't "time it" because if I hesitate, they hit me. In fact, they seem to hit me no matter what I do. I can't anticipate the movements of 12 simultaneous greavers. If I plant the bomb the second they show the purple attack lines, they hit me before the bomb goes off. And if I try to shield them, I can't charge the next bomb before they attack again, even with ctr max.
And it takes a lot longer to raise a sprite to level 50 than it does to get 5* gear. At least for people who started playing BEFORE the update.

@venomous
at level 50, Angelic Aura won't do crap.

@draycos
1. how can I be "not doing it right" when I have no problems with any other spawn in the game? Man, I keep saying the same thing over and over and nobody listens...

2. That doesn't make much sense because you aren't going to fail "writing an x" after 10 seconds or even 10 minutes. With mechas, they get harder a lot faster with more health. And fighting mechas isn't NEARLY as boring as you seem to make it sound. I'd still rather fight one greaver with 12x health than 12 greavers with normal health. Besides, endurance modes are a common staple of video games. Taking more time to kill = more challenge.

4. Well excuse me for being HUMAN.

5. When there's a lot of enemies and your mobility is limited, you can't always deal with every single attack coming at you. That's why the game has shields. And before you say "well then just shield them", shielding slows you down and prevents you from attacking. And shields break. And unlike you, nobody's perfect.

6. Then OOO must have some major server errors. Regardless, it's way too hard to predict where, to within half a tile, enemy attacks will actually damage.

So you're saying it's MY fault I can't fight off one specific spawn of enemies that appears nowhere else in the game and has an "approach" that I would never have to deal with anywhere else? And arguing that it's "optional" doesn't fix the fact that I'm being deprived of loot that I would have no problem retrieving in any other arena. Heck, even if I somehow DID beat that level, it should pay more rewards to justify it. Instead I'm basically wasting Sparks for a room I would normally get the same payouts for less trouble. So I'm either losing sparks, or losing rewards. It's lose-lose.

8. They dash twice whether they shoot or bite. And I can never tell which they'll do, regardless of how close I am. I've had them "stick to me" (i.e. dash around me in a tight circle) whether I'm moving or not.

You think wolvers are MORE pathetic than zombies? Zombies don't teleport all over the place randomly, and don't attack 3 times in a row. You want pathetic? Look at Chromas and Scuttlebots. And even those can be a hazard when you're dealing with other enemies.

It's a stalemate. Sure they move constantly, but you can't hit them either. And they can still pop op behind you; they only teleport if you shoot toward them.

-Regardless, MSI is too expensive to get for what little difference it actually makes.
-You're forgetting the 2000E+ just to buy the pod, and the fact that there's no reason you should require one specific sprite, weapon, armor, helmet, or shield just to take on ONE spawn
-before they were "promoted" they weren't (as) OP in large groups. Also, the patch notes combined with the fact that two different arenas are now virtually unwinnable solo points to "massive oversight" and not "working as intended".

Also this forum BADLY needs [quote] tags.

Anyway, I may have found something that works. Last time I went to a fiend arena, I accidentally hit the shield bash button, which stunned and dispersed some of the greavers. I still had to use a spark, but I think it helped. Regardless, I'm not going out of my way to fight greaver arenas solo, but this is still an issue.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 20:02

#310

Zeddy

"If I plant the bomb the second they show the purple attack lines"

Yes, that would be too late. You need to plant the bomb about a couple of seconds before that. Do you want more videos of me clearing fiend arenas with DBB? Because I can produce them all day until you are able to observe the proper timing in one of them. Alternatively, just do like I've been saying several times already:

This method uses Max CTR, but it's possible at lower levels of it.
When you know a greaver spawn is about to appear (and you can predict any greaver spawn 2 or larger with 100% accuracy if you know your arenas), have a bomb charged.
The moment they appear, drop the bomb and start charging another. This bomb will be timed to interrupt them.
A moment before your bomb explodes, drop another. This bomb will not interrupt them because it will explode long before they attack.
The moment before that one explodes, drop another. This bomb will interrupt the greavers' next attack.
If everything is not yet dead, repeat from step 4 again.

That's right. Greavers wait so long between their attacks that you actually have time to drop two bombs between their assaults. That's why it's possible to spam bombs too fast to interrupt them properly.

Remember when I linked this video? That video was not about bragging. You were supposed to observe the proper timing shown in it. If you look at the video, and look at my instructions above, you'll see that they match.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 21:53

#311

Draycos

Well, I'm bored, might as well go against my word and post here again.

1. Because you're saying the same thing every time and it's wrong every time.

2. Their attacks are easily avoided enough that it just doesn't matter how long it takes you to kill them, as long as you know how to fight them. A good example of "endurance" being challenging would be bullet-curtain shmups, where it's very difficult to avoid some patterns of attacks by luck and button mashing alone.

That's because that one Greaver can be stunlocked as much as you please, with barely any thought into it. You could use a proto sword and still beat it without a scratch... multiple Greavers at once calls for different gear and attacks.

4. And as a human, you can improvise, adapt, and overcome.

5. If you get into a situation where you have to tank more than one hit, you did something horribly wrong. Most damage-appropriated shields can take about two hits before breaking, and then you have to back off. Shielding doesn't slow you down too much if you're only shielding when you need to instead of holding it down for dear life. And let's not forget Dash. If you get stuck, use Dash and get out of there while playing safe til you have that get-out-of-jail-free card ready again.

Obviously I'm not perfect, but I'm good enough at the game to consistently not-die in most any situation. Most of "being good" in this game is just knowing how things work; there's not all that much mechanical skill involved.

6. The servers are kinda screwy lately, but you might have a fluctuating connection for whatever reason.

The other arenas need to get a boost in difficulty instead of having mindlessly spammed enemies, which is boring design that currently only works well with certain enemies *cough cough*. Also, you don't need to lose sparks or rewards, you just need to play better. Sounds stupid, and it is, but it's true. It can be done, I've done it myself, I've seen other people do it, and me and my friends can do it even in a 4-man party where things get even more moronic. You're right about one thing- enemies need balancing. You're wrong by saying Greavers should be nerfed to the level of other enemies, though.

Not like OOO can't just make real AI changes in different difficulties, though.

A) They don't dash when they shoot. Also, they dash in straight lines, only "curving" if they run into something. I don't know what you're doing wrong but it works for me.

B) Zombies can deny an area with status breath and have a little more knockback resistance (IIRC). Wolvers teleport behind you and usually when someone shoots a projectile in their general direction. Alpha Wolvers' triple bites are actually easier to dodge than zombies' jumps because of how slowly they're executed. Chromas are pretty wimpy, honestly; they're pretty much Retrodes with less range and a pathetically small status hazard. Scuttlebots are actually more dangerous than Wolvers because they have a good amount of spread on their "melee" attack andfire their attacks faster. That means they can punish you for bad positioning a lot more easily, which is especially noticeable in the Gun Puppy danger room.

C) That was a reply about Mecha Knights, but I'll bite anyways. Wolvers don't teleport if they're already trying to attack/being flinched. Plus, non-projectile attacks don't cause them to teleport at all, unless they just feel like it.

-As an avid user of Vortex bombs, you couldn't be more wrong. It lets me dodge a lot of stuff while charging and spamming that I shouldn't be able to otherwise.
-As if you need Maskeraith for it anyways. Another helpful thing to have =! you need this to avoid dying.
-They were still powerful, they just took less time to kill (which means you could sometimes go ham and M1 without using any specific gear [and hopefully not die later with the damage you'd have taken]). Again, the "greaver-spam" situations were popping up too much, so they bottled them up in Arenas, because it was too difficult for the average Joe to beat them. It sucked the fun out of playing Fiend stratums for those who weren't reasonably prepared to deal with them, especially players transitioning from tier to tier. Arenas are SUPPOSED to be difficult; they're SUPPOSED to appeal to experienced players. Which is why you can just leave the arenas early. Other enemy types are just way more lenient with gear choice.

These forums are mechanically awful, like people have been saying since the dawn of time.

That's a good way to get out of a greaver-ball, but that Stun will make them attack in different intervals, which means you might end up being forced to take damage or burn Dash.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 23:06

#312

Zeddy

Look, if I post a video where I solo the greaver wave without sprites, trinkets, UVs, using only DBB and not taking a single hit, will that end this? 'cause I can do that.

I do that all the time.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 10:07

#313

Warp-Master

sage

No. No, it wouldn't. Only mod intervention is going to make this thread die.

I'd still like to see that solo video, though.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 04:44

#314

Asthix

I changed my mind

and now think this thread is just sad.

Also have fun trying over and over to take no dmg Zed.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 06:48

#315

President-Trump

-Yawns

This thread now has 7 pages, very nice.

After 1 month, how have YOU possibly not found a way to deal with them?
In this case it's YOUR problem.

Get me 10000 greavers, a super computer that is able to handle all the projectlies and movements, 1 corner and a toothpick. I can kill the pack regardlessly.

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Greavers STILL cheat! (this topic applies to ARENAS ONLY!!! Please stop implying I can't kill a single lone greaver)