I have a question, and no I have not read through the whole thread so maybe I am misunderstanding something but what about the recipes I bought this morning and learned but had not crafted yet? Now I have to pay a higher crafting fee?? But being that I already bought and learned the recipe I do not get to take advantage of the lower recipe cost?? How is this right? I mean you could of at least given us a warning.
This is just wrong to do to your players
I've been saving crowns trying to jump from 3* to 5* gear by buying the 5* gear premade. All I can say is... ouch!
I wonder will this thread become the biggest one in Spiral Knights so far...I think an energy thread got to like 330 something...
Personally I think the only thing that I dislike is that the changes weren't made clear in advance. Could've saved a lot of grief if people knew crafted items would stay bound in advance.
Otherwise I'm exceedingly happy with the auction house, content with the energy changes (I buy energy every couple weeks so the cheaper recipe cost and higher value in crowns balances out the crafting costs), and neutral towards everything else.
Glad to see the game update with decent regularity, look forward to what's to come.
*Please read all the points made by equally irate players, and you will pretty much read what I have to say*
The only real problem I have with this change is the 4*/5* limitation. I think I understand why it's there, to prevent new players from just buying their way to Tier 3, but there has to be another way to do this. I like crafting. Now there's almost no point in doing it, especially with the increase in crafting fee.
This patch is going to ruin the economy, and then the game... Maybe not today or tomorrow, but less people coming in hoping to just play for free will soon mean more people leaving the game than joining to play this "F2P game"; which you now have made abundantly clear isn't meant to be free.
The energy costs on crafting needs to be rebalanced at least. The bounded above 3* is only going to hurt the players who make all their money from crafting a lot of high end gear; which is to say your also hurting your most loyal and long lasting followers.... But that alone wasn't a completely awful change in my books.
Do something before you ruin yourselves....
I would just like to start off by saying that I work 50-60 hours a week, and started playing this game a couple weeks ago. Not having time to level equipment, I employed others with CE to do so or bought equipment. I enjoyed playing with friends on their level. I have dropped $130 dollars in a few weeks (Got my spending limit increased even), because I thought this game was worth it, and I have the CASH to do so. You would have continued to get my support by PAYING for your CE, if it were not for this patch. You will NEVER again get another cent from me unless you roll this back. There were a few things that I was leveling myself just to feel like I was accomplishing something.... I planned on collecting EVERYTHING and helping guildies out. I even recommended this game to EVERY employee that I have. When I go into work tomorrow I will tell them about this horrible update you have done and retract my recommendation. I am not sure how much people pay for this game, but the amount that I was paying was so that I could have something I didn't have the REAL time to obtain.... For a few weeks you guys made $130 from me, I think that is a good amount of income and it would have continued.... Good luck, and I wish you all the best! Hope you enjoy your players advice that do not pay for the game.
Let me know what you think of those statistics Developers?
@ Nick : By the way- Good job on the AH, it was needed, even though you eliminated the use for it through the awful patch
-Tribe
@LostTribe, I'm basically in the same boat as you, while I haven't spent that amount I've still given more than most would to play/support this game.
I hadn't recommended the game to many people, as I wanted to get towards end-game before preaching praises and of course this update has proved my reasoning right, within a blink of an eye a whole game that was just plain fun (in my opinion) has now become a pay to progress arcade game.
Somebody else must have mentioned this already, but DO refund us for recipes we've already learned! I feel like I just got really ripped off buying a 45k recipe and learning it last night only to see recipes going down in price with an 800CE craft cost o.O. gahhhh
I hate everything about this patch. Even more restrictions on trading items, increased crafting costs, forcing players to spend more energy to get to Basil or get boss tokens, the absurd listing fees in the auction house and the absolutely USELESS training map. How about some dummies that can take more than one hit so I can test weapons with status effects? Or how about a melee section that's actually big enough to test swords in?
Why don't you just charge players energy to log in and change maps while you're at it.
FYI, with the current energy rates it would cost about 420k to get a full 5* set, not counting the energy you'd need to spend hunting recipes, crowns and materials. Artificially extending the time it takes to earn something as opposed to adding new content to earn is really, really weak. I hope all of the people who are threatening to quit actually do, because you don't deserve to be turning a profit if this is your idea of an improvement.
gmhuntr7 ......exactly what I was asking but it seems like they are too concerned and busy locking threads than addressing our concerns. Lost Tribe am I like you and have spent a lot but I wont anymore. Not a dime
@debinnv I get that you're pissed but GMs don't develop the game.
If you're going to complain, complain about one of the legitimately bad things that were part of this update not the people who are working to present the devs with feedback that's more useful than 50 threads whining about the same thing that's already been gone over in good detail in this thread.
Indeed. Is there a reason for not refunding learned recipes? They too were bought with the same amount of crowns, so why should they not be included? At this point it'd moot, because there'd probably be no way to distinguish newly learned recipes (post-patch) from those learned before.
Life isn't fair, but being unfair to customers, clients and fans can have very negative repercussions, considering the enormous variety of F2P games out there. SK is a gem of a game, but I would hate to see it ground to dust by a heavy-handed update before it really got to shine. I humbly suggest that at the very least, the unbinding-on-crafting be restored.
From the thread that was locked again:
I am a F2P player who can no longer afford to sustain my gameplay with a bit of profit. My main way of making money was making 5* gear and selling them to people who bought CE and wanted the higher tier gear. Now, I can no longer do that. My only ways of making money consist of picking up CR pennies at a time or selling mats. And, while I love the idea of the AH, the cost of mats is very low because of high supply. So either way, I'll never be able to afford 5* gear unless I whip out my non-existent credit card.
Ive played almost 200 hours and, pre patch, could afford 2 more 5* pieces. Now I'll be lucky to get one more before becoming permanently poor due to the lack of money making options. That's ridiculous IMO.
TL;DR I can no longer make money, costs have doubled, cost of mats has plummeted, and my friends and I are going to a more realistic F2P game because of it.
To all pplz ragequitting bcuz of the whole binding upgraded weps thing: DO WHAT YOU WANT, I DON'T CARE
To all pplz ragequitting bcuz of increased crafting costs: DEAL WITH IT, I CAN
To all pplz NOT ragequitting bcuz of Fun Training Hall where you can set other people on fire: YESSSSS, LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE
Ayayayayayayaya.
Anyway, I think that I've said this before but I think increasing the crowns for recipes and crafting (which would become a major crownsink) and decreasing the energy cost would get people much more interested, and perhaps more willing to donate, to the game. I've noticed that many people, myself included, have a goal to have lots of different kinds of items and equipment they can mix and match to their own liking. The new system in place prevents that, making it take much longer than it should to get a three star item, let alone anything for Tier 3-level gear.
In addition, this update just encourages people to stick to only a few kinds of high level equipment, avoiding the obscene amount of CE it would take to get multiple sets of T3-ready gear. It's not very fun to be locked into the (very pretty) Seraphic set in a T3 Fire strata or a Swift Flourish in a Jelly King run because you couldn't get all the CE to get something more practical.
Seriously people... new game. New games get tweaks. Selling teleports to Basil is pretty clearly circumventing the spirit of the game. Having people join up just to kill the boss is pretty clearly circumventing the spirit of the game. Oh no, things cost a little more. As long as energy prices don't spike too badly (which is questionable at best), that's not a huge deal in the long run.
The 3* cap on crafting is odd/awkward, but that is easily fixed. And perhaps a necessity in the short term to stabilize energy prices.
They really should've put the "Bind bound items on upgrade" bit under the Bugfix section of the release notes. For a game that binds equipment when you *try it on*, allowing people to trade fresh upgrades smelled a bit like a loophole.
What this really does is put the rarity of items back under OOO's control. In the previous setup, you could pay a fat stack of money for a 'rare' item, and then the person who made it for you could make a hundred more and sell them all off, making your 'rare' item much less so. And possibly distorting the total amount of crowns earned in the clockworks. Now, someone has to find the recipe. If OOO wants to make it so that only 10 players have the Ubersword, they only make 10 recipes, and there will only be 10 people ever who can use the Ubersword (assuming it requires a leveled ingredient).
And you can still sell both recipes and materials. Instead of selling pre-made items, sell the stuff to make them. So really, the change is that you can no longer sell levels for other player's items, you can't sell high-end UVs, and you can only sell a recipe once. It seems reasonable.
A possible improvement would be to allow UVs to be peeled off one item, traded, and stuck onto another item with equal or fewer stars. Their rarity would still be game-controlled, but people could gain money from them or pay to optimize their weapons/gear.
I don't mind the increase in high-end alchemy costs because the crafted items stick around forever. It's not like some games where the items wear out and you have to craft new ones periodically, so its ok if it takes a bit longer to fund it.
The training ground is a handy reference. It would be good to also have a room that explains damage types, and have a room with different monster families so you can understand how that works without having to pull up the wiki or dive into the clockworks unprepared.
I did complain about one of the legitimately bad things, I guess you didn't read that post. I wonder why you singled my post out. LOL
@debinnv I singled your post out because giving the GMs s*** for doing their job is stupid and doesn't belong here.
1. The price of CE went up for "panic buying" but it's now back below 4900, and seems to be decreasing (as the AH adds a nice new use for crowns that we never needed before)
2. The prices on the AH for materials are not bare minimum. In fact, they're fairly reasonable. It's about the same they were before the Auction House was implemented.
3. The increased crafting cost is almost exactly offset by the decreased recipe cost. The recipe goes down by 20k Cr ~ 420 CE, and the crafting cost increases by 500CE --> net crafting increase ~~80CE. This is not amazingly high. And since now you only buy for yourself, it's relatively static.
I think it's kind of stupid to get so angry about not being able to sell 4* and 5* gear. It makes the game more interesting - you won't have rich kids who bought the game yesterday able to suddenly buy into 5* gear instantly and run vana (and suck for the rest of the group.) Buy the 3* gear, and level it up.
It's kind of unfortunate for those of us (myself included) who used to extort spoiled rich kids or adults who wanted to put money into this game instead of their children or relationships by selling premade 5* gear, but is that really so bad? If we are selling 5* gear, it probably means we're already IN 5* gear, so there's not that much real reason to play anyways, except the social aspect and just grinding for fun (which we can still do, except put the heat to our own costume pieces or something instead of offering noobies a way to skip the real "meat" of the game)
Stop bitching so much. Maybe they'll re-unbind 4/5* items, maybe they won't. This shouldn't be THAT important to your life, if you have one.
debinnv can say whatever the hell he wants
during these times of high emotion and anguish over something we're passionate about
don't limit others like some sort of mod or police state
Oh and personally I love the auction house, I've always found playing the auction house (buying low and selling high) to be great.
It would be a little better if they worded the listing price vs. sales price bit a little more clearly, since now it sounds like you lose 10% of your sale (when in reality they only deduct 10% of the difference between your final sale price and initial bid listing price, which is usually quite small, unless you put an item of high value for an initially small value.)
(and if they made it more clear if you were refunded if your auction times out! I'm still testing this now)
You know, I am so angry at this point that I don't even care about most of the other problems with this update. I care about the economic problems introduced with the crafting energy being jacked up beyond affordability and the inability to trade 4* and 5* items. What point is there to my becoming a crafter? I can sell to n00bs only? Oh boy.
What really chaps my hide is that I'm just a poor knight. I can't afford to try new weapons or new armor sets at these CE crafting costs. I can't even afford to look good.
Figuring the cost for crafting a 4* then 5* item from one of my existing 3* items and factoring in my free mist energy for part of it, it would cost 1,000 CE per item, not including the recipe cost, crafting crown cost or levelling costs. Now, to get to Vanaduke, I need two weapons, a helm, a set of armor and a shield. So, 5,000 CE for the whole set just to craft it.
Trading for it, at tonight's energy trading costs of 5,000 crowns to 100 energy, would cost me 250,000 crowns.
Buying it costs $19.95 for 7,500 energy, which makes the set cost $13.30, but of course you have to pay $20 at a time.
$13 a set?! For some colored pixels that I'm required to have in order to play the endgame? What if I choose badly and get a set that doesn't work well for me personally? $13 down the drain OR, I grind my life away trying to pick up 250,000 crowns. It takes forever to grind that much on free mist each day! I don't like grind for the sake of grind and I really don't want to pay simply to avoid having to grind the next six months away for my Dread Venom Striker.
If I wanted to grind this much for a lousy $13, I'd be a gold-farmer in WoW.
The difference in price due to the update is staggering. The same 5-item set under the old crafting energy requirements was 1,500 CE. A mere 75,000 crowns or less than $4.95 for 1,600 Energy. Of course, this also shows WHY they have increased the energy prices so high. See how much more profit they make?
IF I can continue to play, I won't be playing Tier3 nor buying 4* or 5* gear. It's just not affordable in this "Free to Play" "Casual" game of Spiral Knights.
@ Abhorsen55
So what your saying is you want to stop "rich kids" from buying CE and supporting OOO. YAAHHAHAHAHA.
And no, I was selling 5* gear wearing 4* gear when I started (of course I have 5* gear now). Seriously, stop trying to tell people HOW to play.
And your #3 is retarded.
What if I want to make two Levi, one with UV CTR and one with Atk Speed? Cost me more now doesn't it vs before.
>He's trying to play the "hurr durr they have no lives" card
http://www.oneyearnovel.com/images/LaughingGirls_laptop.jpg
THis game is turning from Awesome to sheer Disappointment..................
200 for 3 star
400 for 4 star
800 for 5 star
ARE YOU KIDDING ME??????
What makes this game are its players , and if you wont listen to your players then goodluck...
Spiral Knights is becoming a very big Hit ,,, and if you dont change this soon , i suspect about 50% of your players will leave
All we want is for you guys to bring back the original prices of recipes and crafting energy cost......
PLS>!!!!!!
Wow.. so much for playing this game for fun without it feeling like I'm grinding. Now alot of us casual players will have to do tier 1 and tier 2 runs 5x more than normal just to have the crowns to buy CE. Forget about crafting... it costs way to much CE for all the players that have only a small amount of CE to begin with...
Three Rings better roll-back the game and remove the 4* & 5* crafted weapon's binding and return the energy cost for crafting to what it was before this update... :(
Guess I just play something else for now.. :(
@Lost4Now
I guess if you're a Levi fanboy then you might do that but if you seriously only multiple leviathans as your weapons of choice, then I'm not sure you should be calling _me_ retarded :).
Protip: there are numerous different weapons for different cases, why not spend your time diversifying and exploring the strenghts and weaknesses of each one?
I shouldn't be responding to trolls but I can't help it!
*Edit* I realize now you might be one of those kids and that's why you got so offended! I'm sorry, I didn't mean it personally, I guess my generalizing just didn't go over so well.
Also, I don't see where I told people how to play the game, but rather said that it might be more worthwhile to stop complaining about it (since everything's been said before) and to try to just enjoy it as much as you can? But I guess that's hard for some people..
*/Edit*
Unless, of course, you enjoy my tears. : P
You want statistics?
Nearly all of the SK players were online a while ago just to rage on and on about it.
Or is it SEGA's fault?
If they want cold, hard statistics, we'll show them "cold, hard statistics" by not buying a SINGLE DROP OF CE WITH REAL CASH. READ THE ENTIRE THREAD, OOO. If possible, just ROLL BACK THE WHOLE (BLEP)IN UPDATE ENTIRELY!
...Except for the training hall, i luvs it. It's fun setting players on fire with oil and fire pots. And the training bots are adorable. Strange how very few people mention the training hall, it's a nice place for anyone low on energy.
Welcome to your glorious new job Eurydice.
People are complaining that the 5* crafting fees changed dramatically. They didn't really. From 45000 a recipe to 25000 (a savings of 20000 crowns). The energy cost went up from 400 (right ?) to 800 - which cost exactly 20000 crowns right now. Yes, the price was adjusted, but stop whining - it's not near as bad as it seems. As long as there is at least one 2 & 3* run that is profitable for kights, you should be fine. If you're smart and use friends and a guild, it shouldn't be hard at all.
I've had a bit of time to cool down and think through my initial rage at this update.
I've come to the following conclusion...
The "soul binding" of advanced equipment has FORCED my interaction with the game to become GRINDING.
For me, and I assume, a large part of the player base the ability to avoid grinding was a huge aspect of the enjoyment of this game.
The increased CE costs of crafting would simply alter the price structure... Market forces at work. Absolutely fine. In fact I enjoy the challenge that such a move causes. Ditto on the AH. I think the listing prices are a bit high, but eventually a market equilibrium will be discovered.
As I stated in my earlier post, a huge part of my personal enjoyment of the game was NOT HAVING TO GRIND my way to top level equipment.
Under the previous system, those who wished to grind their way through could do so. That was their choice. I was given alternative ways of interacting with the game.
FORCING me to enjoy the game on your terms is NOT something I am willing to accept...
I... honestly can't tell what the purpose was for the non-auction house parts of this update.
The auction house is great! Should have been implemented on release day, and it looks like everything I ever wanted from it.
The training hall is nice, I guess. Nothing I really care about. Nice for the newbies, and nothing else.
The rest though? I don't understand. By making items remain bound after crafting, you have shut down a MASSIVE part of the economy. Increasing the already significant cost of crafting high-tier items seems nigh spiteful. I can kiiiind of see where you're going with the boss tokens, but again, that seems more out of spite than enhancing player experience--inviting friends to skip the profitless floors of a boss dungeon is just courteous, not me trying to screw others out of content.
This will either force players to buy more CE (which, yes, I know, that's your primary purpose) or leave. If so, congratulations. I will take the second option.
im a player from Taiwan
my english is pretty poor
so im sorry if you dont understand my english
ill try to write this as clearly as possible
i have to say: This is no longer a "free online game" anymore
in Taiwan, such free online game is called "mall game"
because there is always a "mall" in game which you have to buy with real money for some special resource
players spend real money can usually get stronger or richer more faster than players who dont
lets call these players who pay real money as PP
and call those players who dont pay real money as FP
usually PPs dont have much time to play games due to work, so they can and want to pay to keep up with FP or even better
FPs have more time playing so they might get better gear than PPs, but they still need special resource from PPs, such as CE in Spiral Knights
so
PPs will keep buying special resource to trade with FPs in order to get better gears
and FPs will also be happy to sell gears to PPs to get those resource
so yes, a "free online game" is supported by those PPs
but PPs are playing because they can trade with FPs
this situation is pretty much the same before the patch
but now its different
players have to get best gears on their own
so PPs can no longer buy high star gears from FPs
which might stop PPs from paying
what happens next? price of CE will rise
FPs cant afford the rising price of CE
and they cant sell high star gears to get CE or crowns
which means FPs also have to pay to continue playing
in the end
everyone will have to pay for the CE they are spending on both adventure and crafting
which makes this game no longer a "free online game"
hope you can make adjustment about it
I already said I wouldn't really talk about the prices...
but.
Old vs new
Old
Recipe 45000 + 300 energy (15000) + 5000 crowns = 65000 cr.(we're ignoring mats).
New
Recipe 25000 + 800 energy (40000) + 5000 crowns = 70000 cr
Seems identical, but here's the problem. Energy itself tends to go up given enough time. Who's to say that the price of energy won't go up to the legendary 10k. By making it cost more in energy, the higher energy prices rise, the bigger the gap between the old and new prices.
Say let's do the same but set energy to 6k (not unreasonable).
Old
Recipe 45000 + 300 energy (18000) + 5000 crowns = 68000 cr.(we're ignoring mats).
New
Recipe 25000 + 800 energy (48000) + 5000 crowns = 78000 cr
The gap grows wider...the old price was better.
Similar case for four star things where the price was reduced by the current price of 100 energy(5000cr), but then it now costs 200 more energy to make that item which effectively increases it by 5000 cr (and more over time perhaps)
@Abhorsen55
Aww thanks for playing. I was using Levi as an example.
I guess you don't have multi-sets of lets say Vog with different sets of UV vs each element/debuff. Since you know, there are so many other sets with increase attack speed bonus for swords and all.
/sarcasm
Nice pro tip, did you wiki that?
I complain because there is a need to.
[edit]
When did having two of the same weapon with different UV = only knowing to use that one weapon only? and for all situations?
The auction house & training center are all great but the issue of weapons binding.....BASICLY, the only things to auction/only IMPORTANT things to auction are recipes..R-E-C-I-P-E-S. Everything binds in SK once you equip it, but now after crafting that too has to happen? =.=" There has to be another way for both the players & GMs to profit without a uberish downside.
Such drastic changes without warning. I havent been on too much lately but this truly is a game changer and is unfair to many players who revolved their play around previous mechanics
I was wondering when good old GREED is gonna kick in...
like every other f2p game in universe, as soon as they felt money coming in they did all in their power to drain even more from players. You could learn alot from ArenaNET, about game making and ethics behind it! Shame on you!
This is very sad day for indie scene!
I don't like that the crystal energy I bought has been devalued so much through the increased alchemy cost.
You wanted money yeah? We crafters provided that for you.
everything else in the update was okay even the raise in CE crafting cost. But really... that crafting rule is just stupid.
Goodbye $$$.
game is now crap in my opinion
Honestly I feel that energy is being used for too many things here:
Crowns on the other hand have only one real use, crafting:
Since crowns don't factor into the exploring equation though, and the only way to acquire materials or crowns is to use energy, it is the superior form of currency. There is literally no reason to have crowns given the necessity of energy. If crowns could be used to buy your way into the Clockwork, or if energy was removed from crafting in favour of higher material/crown costs, it would balance out. I could live with having to buy all the recipes needed to get the gear I want. It still ruins the community aspect of selling your high level wares to others or being nice and upgrading for friends/guild mates. And as others had mentioned that's one of the only things high level people were doing because they had essentially "won the game" with nothing else to do.
now i really have to grind just to get anywhere else in the game, if i cant make gears due to CE costs, there is no point of playing unless you are unemployed and play this game all day(there are better ones to spend ALL day on) be glad there is no PvP, then recepies will be even more absured. you should either: increace crown cost in clockworks, put a crowns cap on the CE so we can afford it, or just switch it back plz!, and i dont like theres no story, just level up gears and done! no story, about how we "crash landed" (i know this might not belong here) but what about getting back to where we came from(ideas for the story!), just clockwork endlessly now gears are untradable, i dont like that.
I'm all for the Auction House change but what I'd really love to be is the original Energy Crafting prices and conditions (Weapon not staying bound bound), and original trading conditions pre-5/17/11 update.
Everything else I don't mind.
The fuse limitations, CE fuse increase, all of that.
without items being really tradeable, the auction house is already dead to me, and in all honesty, so is SK.. :/
*edit* utter agreement with Magnus' above a few post.