Spiral Knights - So the other day I started up the game.

So the other day I started up the game.

46 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 18:26

Fehzor

And then I frowned. And a thought popped into my mind.

"The Binding of Isaac sure has an awesome looking UI!"

And I remembered when Wrath of the Lamb came out and they added the curses and that one that made the map go dark- how much of a pain it was when that was gone. How removing vital information made the game so much harder, even if that information was most of the time calculable with a pen and paper.

And then I went and played some Isaac.

And then later I watched some Extra Credits, because that show is interesting even if I have no business with game-creation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h86g-XgUCA8&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg...

And I thought back to my argument with Zopyros THE SECOND and how I had played devil's advocate albeit badly. He says "The Royal Jelly fight is bad game design." and I say "But it functions and the company would make more money if they allocated resources to something else."

Because we all know that OOO isn't about to go back and add royal polyps to RJP. They don't even have time to fix the iron slug.

And I thought about the video. My argument was also that the game design behind RJP didn't matter, because the playerbase played that level so much that it became second nature, and then passed that information down to others. And that the playerbase liked it because of crowns.

And then I thought about Nick and the UI a bit. Nick said stuff about the UI and about linear gameplay and about ambiguous game design concepts that made it hard to quote him into sounding bad, but still left us with the feeling that he had no idea what he was talking about.

Players play the game so that they can get crowns. Not because they enjoy it. They go out of their way to say things like "Fix the arcade" because they like the arcade and want to play it, but-

They would rather have virtual currency than actual enjoyment of the game.

The extrinsic reward of the game largely outweighs the intrinsic reward. The largest intrinsic rewards in the game come from getting new gear and getting to use it- the extrinsic rewards come from fighting through zambies forever or paying up.

And then I felt a bit sad, because I thought about how awesome Spiral Knights could have been if the devs had done a better job at balancing things and being creative with the ways that they added content in.

Like how all of the items cost energy and require hours of grinding or cash to get to.

And how all of the levels and new content are hidden in the mission system, or behind the massive wall of grinding for the next thing.

Like when they added that one place with all of the kats, and no one played it after a week. Instead, players went back to their firestorm citadels and their royal jelly palaces and disregarded the new candlestick keep levels. They didn't like them because they paid out badly. The same thing happened with the roarmulus twins. Players often "like" that content better, but it doesn't pay enough raw crown output to be considered worthwhile.

I always have that feeling, that the concept of Spiral Knights holds so much untapped potential that goes so wasted as time goes on. How it could have even beaten WoW or something like that. Been the next minecraft.

This one time a friend was like "You're playing a Legend of Zelda clone with an awful energy system!" and I was like "it has some things from zelda, but it has other things from other games... and it has awesome multiplayer"

But no, he was right. Thats all that it is. A Legend of Zelda clone with an awful energy system. The multiplayer isn't so multiplayer unless you go way out of your way to find people to play it with you, because they are all stuck farming stuff all the time, because they aren't stupid. They want gear.

And then I watched another video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHBOWPLpXrs

And I thought about how we don't know if the devs are being crushed by SEGA or strapped for cash or something. For all we know, Nick could cry himself to sleep every night, at the thought that he was being forced to mutilate his creation. To read over our threads, to agree with us. To say "Yeah, this is crap. Iron slug should have a buff right now." and then find out that he cannot buff the iron slug. To hope that we'd just forget about that he'd agreed with us. I really wish I could just sit down and ask him that.

But until I know for sure, I guess I can't just presume anything. He might just be greedy or misguided or something. Why else would he kill the artistic style of the game, impose all of the grinding and spam bad looking promotions at us with no actual content being added? More things that I would love to know..

Which makes me think about Zeddy. It would take the devs, or the GMs asking the devs, all of a half hour to fill in much of the wiki, but they don't. Rather, Zeddy pays them his energy in order to figure the things out that they've made. The damage numbers for monsters, the health of a lichen merged precisely 6 times on depth 19. Zeddy also paid for their mistake regarding chaos and mad bomber. Thats right, he crafted chaos armor when the devs outclassed his armor, no questions asked. And about how someone, I think it was a Little-Juances of some sort said "OOO doesn't "think" we're stupid. They have proof :P"

And he's really right. Why else would we (or all of you, I play what I like) sit there, day after day, farming the same content over and over when we openly admit that we don't want to do it?

And then I thought about how everyone has this concept known as "deserves" and it works something like this-

"Zeddy deserves to have a glass cannon set that is in balance with other items, because he crafted it."

But Zeddy did not, because OOO off-balanced his mad bomber by buffing chaos to the stars and beyond.

So perhaps it should work something more like this-

"Fehzor deserves to have a glass cannon set that is in balance with other items, because she successfully predicted that the devs would buff it out of proportions some day, and then crafted it rather than mad bomber."

That way, it would tell us something that makes sense. Because no one really deserves anything- it's all just an opinion. But if we were to use this to explain things that do happen, then it works a bit better in practice.

"We don't deserve a decent game, because we all chose to play one that isn't decent.

Checks out a lot more than-

"We deserve to play a decent game, because we've been here for a long time waiting/know that the devs "could do better" or any other reasoning."

Unless you think that the game is decent, which is a good possibility. If that is the case, then you should be happy. Until if you run out of content and realize that more isn't coming frequently, and that when it does come it isn't implemented very well. But you might not. Hence the "if". You could just be like "The game is wonderful because FSC is the greatest and I don't need/like other content." But most people tend to, after a while, get tired of where the game sticks them, and leave. Which is sad.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:10

Klipik

I need to watch more of this extra credit stuff

This thread makes a bunch of great points... but... what's the discussion supposed to be about?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:12

Fehzor

It doesn't actually go anywhere.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:28

Hariender

giggles

"And then later I watched some Extra Credits, because that show is interesting even if I have no business with game-creation."
fehzor you don't have to be game creator i even want many gamer to watch it and learn.

I wish i want to play arcade without worry about energy,my 1st thought when play the game they gonna keep releasing new floor each month and and make the arcade more random (i think its a hard thing to do since need to update each month and keep making interesting level design but that would sound cool)

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:30

Klipik

Stop editing it so much >.<

And:
"Fehzor deserves to have a glass cannon set that is in balance with other items, because she successfully predicted that the devs would buff it out of proportions some day, and then crafted it rather than mad bomber."
1- By this logic, we should have had an iron slug buff long ago.
2- Fehzor = she 0.o

And for that last part, I'm going with "We deserve a good game, because we found a mediocre game with potential and sat around playing it, enjoying it, thinking up ideas for it, criticizing it, and trying our best to make it better. The least OOO could do was try to humor our feedback."

But in reality, we don't deserve anything, because we didn't give anyone anything and make a deal that we would recieve something. That's gamer entitlement for ya. "dis coompeny has to leesten tu mai ideers becuz i payd dem $60 for deyr exbawx gaem..." Yeah. No.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:43

Fehzor

I didn't make iron slug because I wanted it to get buffed. But-

"We don't deserve an iron slug buff because we unsuccessfully predicted that Nick wasn't lying to us."

And it was largely a lie. He implied or said that it would happen in the foreseeable future, which is now past us.

And you're missing the point of the deserves logic. You deserve exactly what you get, because saying that you deserve something for any reason other than that you've got it for that reason does nothing. It also, as I said, has everything to do with how you consider the game.

"The least OOO could do was try to humor our feedback."

Should be-

"OOO does not have to try to humor our feedback because we will play the game regardless of whether they do or don't."

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:58

Byas

Wow, Fehzor being a girl is

Wow, Fehzor being a girl is one of the most mindblowing things that I have heard in this forum (I usually get the most interesting dialogue with guys, so please don't take it the wrong way, coming from me it's more of a compliment :P).

But @topic: You have a good point. The industry isn't fun and games, from all we know the devs might be against all this but still in need to follow orders, which would make everything even sadder since it already feels bad to see how it develops as a fan... I can't even imagine how it would feel to see it happen with your own creation and dreams... I guess I will stick to login once a day to try and do something with a friend until the Battle Sprites, and if it's another fiasco I will just give up the hope of seeing this game living to it's full potential and get away the grief that comes when it doesn't (which is actually a big deal for me since I loved the art-style, game feel, and everything from the beginning and expected it to become a big name in the industry or at least a cult hit).

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 20:20

Klipik

You assume we're all spineless.
Deserving something doesn't mean you always get it. You don't deserve to be killed by a drunk driver when you cross the street tomorrow, but if it happens it happens. That doesn't mean you deserved it. What you deserve doesn't actually have an effect on the real world, but if you can convince someone with power (OOO) that you (the community) deserve something (not having updates that make the game worse) because of what you have done (had many ideas about how to make the game better, and supported them with free advertising, and in some cases money), you do it in the hope that they will realize it and do their best to get it for you (fix the problems and listen to us some time). You'll notice I don't use the "we deserve this" argument on the update discussion, on any suggestion, on any critique of the game, or anywhere else except here. That's because I think that using the "we deserve this" argument makes me look like a spoiled kid who thinks he is entitled to the world.

So, do you think we deserve an update that makes the game worse, because we have tried countless times to make the game better?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 21:05

Hexzyle

@OP

"It would take the devs, or the GMs asking the devs, all of a half hour to fill in much of the wiki, but they don't"

The Developers prefer we figure out things by ourselves. Which is fine: it brings the community together when we work on projects like this, and some people even enjoy being that legendary person who discovered such and such

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 21:13

Tin-Foil-Hat

If OOO would workshop this

If OOO would workshop this game, they could get more ideas and have content release faster. Just like Team Fortress 2's workshop, im not saying the community should be making the game but contributions nonetheless would probably help out OOO.

If i had to guess what type of money OOO is making, id say its probably not a sufficient amount to release content on a consistent basis. Not that money = content but alot of the times it is, though a good example of a company that produces very little content with massive money intake is Blizzard (Though from what ive been keeping up on, on MMORPG sites is theyre getting a tad bit less lazy with content creation).

Even if its just cosmetic releases that OOO does consistently until actual content releases, that would give the players far more things to look forward to achieving during pre-content releases. Thats what id do atleast.

Personally, i dont think its a matter of deserving this or that. I think its more so a matter of the company being responsible and keeping their players happy, whilst disregarding bad feedback. (When i say bad feedback it means using common sense and disregarding poor ideas, WoW hasnt done that which is why i quit that game months ago).

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 21:24

#10

Fehzor

You guys are kind of missing the point behind the "deserves" thing and I don't really feel like elaborating on it, so don't comment on that part.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 21:34

#11

Klipik

Good. deserves is a bad argument 99% of the time anyway.

Now, @TFH (this is your name now):
Steam workshop you say?

Yes!
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes sí!

Even the devs have said it might happen! Although that's not really the most trustworthy reason, sadly...

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 23:50

#12

Zopyros-Il

Sad Beep, Sad Boop

Fehzor, you are probably one of my favorite people on the forum right now. You have a bit more cynical and realistic approach to thinking about these things than I do and I really appreciate that. It makes me realize some faults in my own arguments. Arguments that I'm making because, like a lot of other people here, we really believe that Spiral Knights can still be a great game. I'm more reliant than most on believing that because game design is something that I'm really looking into. Having to actually think about mutilating my own ideas and creations, my babies essentially, is horrifying to me. I've been told to cut corners through college and its crushed me because the end product just isn't what I wanted, but what the professor wanted.

Bluh. Enough about me. Back to OOO.
First off. Everyone watch the videos that Fehzor linked, especially that second one. Apply them to what's been going on here. Things start adding up quick.

I wish I could come up with the right words to say here, but all I can think is that unless OOO says something to us about what's going on at the moment, we won't know. Things may be going great at the office and they're just so busy working on the Sprites, the new levels, and the new enemies (even the ones that aren't being tested) that they can't get to every little complaint that we make. That's less likely considering how happy they seemed to be with talking with the forums and actually listening to our feedback.
What's more likely is the second scenario, with them being severely restricted, working as hard as they can on making something that SEGA "thinks" will make them money.

Still we won't know until the Battle Sprites come out. If that update is amazing, brings the game back to its wonderful roots, balances all the equipment, revives the Arcade, and just makes things generally "good" again, than OOO was just shutting themselves in to work on it. If the update further pushes the game away from its roots and further reinforces the bad practices that have been going on (endless promotions and a slowly rising pay2win/advance scene), then you're left with two options. Play the "new" game or just leave. It's your choice in the end.

Going back to the SEGA possibly pushing them thing.
As I was combing the web to find other players reactions to the new UI, I checked SEGA's blog and they seemed damned proud and happy about the new UI. While it may be putting on a happy face, it keeps making me think more and more that it was their meddling that led to that thing being shipped as well as a lot of other things that have been breaking this game. But that's all speculation.
Still, I think it's more likely than Nick and the crew horribly mutilating their own creation. Now I feel terrible for saying that all this was their fault. They probably have their hands tied more than we know. I'd tell them to stand up for themselves more and do what they want, but I don't want to get them fired. I wonder if they could break away from SEGA somehow and go back to being on their own...

And about the "deserve" bit, Fehzor. You're right about that.
We're not entitled to anything for playing their game. We may provide them money and play their game, but they don't exactly owe us anything.
WE'RE the ones playing the broken game and refusing to leave.
WE'RE the ones prolonging a game that may have already lived past its prime, just because we still want more stuff from it.
WE'RE the ones with a vain hope of making a difference, that OOO would gladly accept if SEGA wasn't holding them back.
Am I right there? Or am I just getting something completely different than what you're implying?

In the end, I think a lot of us are just hoping for a sun that will never rise at this point.

@Hexzyle
Even with the code in front of them, there's still a lot of formatting and internal work that needs to be done to get the right numbers, so it probably won't take 30 minutes. Probably more likely a full work day or more to fill in all the missing numbers in the Wiki. Work that is being done by the community for free.
For 30 minutes, it's a bit more sensible to ask them to type out something for us to read about the current state of the game. That's what I'm hoping for anyways.

@Tin-Foil Hat and Klip
Setting a game up to accept submissions from the Steam Workshop is FAR more complicated than any of us could understand. Look at TF2, the first game opened up to the Workshop. Most of the items being created for the Shop just can't be used because they use the wrong file type, are formatted in the wrong way, or a plethora of other problems that just makes it impossible for millions of items in the Workshop to not be able to make it into the game. Valve realized the problems and fixed it for Dota2, where there are clear guidelines for making items and an efficient program to turn whatever submissions go into the Workshop can be turned into playable content.
Asking OOO to come up with a ridiculously complicated program to turn any 3D model thrown into their Workshop into something that could work for their JAVA game is just beyond anything that their small team can manage.
Or they could spend months making developer tools for us to use so the community creations can be more readily put into the game. Months where we're crying about the lack of content because everyone is working themselves to death for something that WE asked for.
And then comes deciding what community content makes it into the game. Small as our community is, they still might get a lot of submissions. Then they have to sort the good ones out. Depending on how thorough the submission is they might have to give it stats, animations, icons, balance them out to everything else (HA!), add it into the game itself, make it available through all the proper venues, and probably much more under the hood work than we can know. I mean they JUST found out about some absolutely random bug about the Thwack Hammer in FSC. What would happen if the game starts getting continuously flooded with new items?

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 00:34

#13

Klipik-Forum

Steam workshop or any other kind of user-generated content is not something I expect to see in the game any time soon. I think it's definitely more important that OOO takes a step back, looks at their game over the past two years, and decides whether or not they like where it's going. Unless, of course, it's sega that's making those decisions, in which case we are having this discussion in the wrong place. And the worst thing about the prospect of sega calling the shots over OOO, is that OOO can never tell us about it and keep their jobs. This whole situation reeks.

Consequently, I wish we were talking about this somewhere with no "no language" rule. It's much easier to express my current feelings if I sprinkle a few swears in here and there.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 00:59

#14

Klipik-Forum

Also apparently we are still talking about deserves so :P

I agree that we don't deserve anything. Just because we have played hundreds of hours and contributed ideas about how to make the game better, maybe given them small or large sums of money, does not mean we are entitled to anything. We are not even entitled to a working game, because we did not pay to download it and try it, and if we did choose to pay later it was our own decision. The only thing anyone in this entire community is entitled to is what it explicitly said they were buying if they bought anything. (otherwise it would be false advertising and we could sue.) So no, we don't deserve anything. But, why was this even brought up in the first place? Does anyone here think that we deserve anything?

And as a final thought before I go to sleep: we definitely don't "deserve" anything good. But why should we "deserve" something bad?

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 01:24

#15

Knight-Solaire

Praise the sun! \o/

@Noklip
I would definitely agree with your views of "deserving." In a free-to-play game, we do not have the right to dictate something we have not paid for--our power then lies in our ability to indirectly assess the game as it stands. We can rant (or rave) in the forums and it may draw the attention of the GMs and the developers, but the only way to get the attention of the higher-ups is to speak their language: money. If the fan base has an adverse reaction to an update, sales will drop. The higher-ups will demand that the developers address this change in sales by making players happy again. They then read players' reactions to the patches and take action.

The Dev Team answers to SEGA, and it's unlikely they are allowed to do much outside of what SEGA wants. Basically, we cannot expect the changes we want if we are still willing to support the status quo of sales.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 04:06

#16

Hexzyle

@Zopyros-Il

Even with the code in front of them, there's still a lot of formatting and internal work that needs to be done to get the right numbers, so it probably won't take 30 minutes. Probably more likely a full work day or more to fill in all the missing numbers in the Wiki. Work that is being done by the community for free.
For 30 minutes, it's a bit more sensible to ask them to type out something for us to read about the current state of the game. That's what I'm hoping for anyways.

If you're posting my name as who you're responding to, don't then respond to other people's quotes that I've quoted.

You missed the point: It's the fact of having the whole game as this large, unexplored and undiscovered field of data, that is just waiting to be discovered and experimented on by players.
Since when do any other MMORPG developers fill out of information on the wiki? I can think of none: Players have always been the source of information. The only time the developers step in is when there is something that is false (or has been advertised falsely) and becomes false common knowledge.
Example of a Dev stepping in

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 04:08

#17

Grittle

So Solaire Your saying that

So Solaire

Your saying that the Suggestion forums is just there for laughs?

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 06:15

#18

Blakknite

Simple Fix

Remove the energy it takes to go down elevators.....problem solved. Players will enjoy the game more. They will play more. Crowns will not be as much as a focus as would finally getting 5 star gear. Players will then feel the need to craft just about all the items in the game....Hell if not then make the levels that pay out the most crowns require a energy to run!!

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 06:44

#19

Thunder-The-Bright

@ black: that would get the problem worse.

more energy= more crowns. so crowns are less valuable. ce prices rise (less demand). and then you will not be able to craft if not after, guess what, tons of grinding.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 06:52

#20

Blakknite

Of course

compensate for that. significantly reduce the pay out even though in most levels its already super low. Increase the amount of ce needed for certain levels like Vana. Make it a mini SL or something. Hell make all the boss levels like that. You could get rid of mist completely if they remove the elevator cost.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 07:24

#21

Thunder-The-Bright

even reducing significantly loot, the problem rises again. in this case for materials. 5* mat are already quite uncommon for a 4*. reducing loot would destroy them, if they don't grind certain levels infinite times, which pumps crowns into the market with the consequences I have stated above.
if you don't reduce material drops, they will all get common, so you will destroy the arcade again.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 07:31

#22

Hexzyle

@Blakknite

"compensate for that. significantly reduce the pay out even though in most levels its already super low"

That makes no sense. Say you remove elevator costs:

CE prices rise to ~18,000 crowns per 100CE (very possible, the Asian server prices were at 14,000 crowns per 100 CE since elevator passes were purchasable with CE)
Strata 4 average payout is 700 crowns, I'm fairly sure.
Strata 6 average payout is 1,100 crowns.
Note that the following numbers might be a bit off depending on whether players are permitted to run FSC or not:
This means that tier 2 players will have to run roughly 25 levels in the arcade to acquire enough crowns to purchase 100CE, and another time or two to get the 1,000 crowns for the craft cost of a 3 star weapon. (That's a total of 27 times)
Tier 3 players will have to run roughly 114 times to acquire enough crowns to purchase 700CE, and another 22 times for the craft cost of a 5 star weapon. (that's a total of 136 times)

Now say you drastically nerf level payout, for the case of this example, we'll make it a 50% reduction. As a repurcussion of this, only half the amount of crowns are pouring into the Energy Market, causing the price of energy to drop to 9,000 crowns per 100 CE.
Strata 4 now gives out 350 crowns
Strata 6 now gives out 550 crowns
This means that tier 2 players will still have to run roughly 25 levels in the arcade to acquire enough crowns to purchase 100CE, but now they will have to run 3 times to get the 1,000 crowns for the craft cost of a 3 star weapon. (That's a total of 28 times)
Tier 3 players will still have to run roughly 114 levels to acquire enough crowns to purchase 700CE, But now they have to run another 45 times to work up the crowns for the craft cost of a 5 star weapon. (that's a total of 159 times)

And this is just looking at equipment crafting. What about the obnoxiousity of Auction House fees? Featured Auctions? Pickups from Lobby/Terminal traders? Arcade Tier skip fee? Coliseum fees?

Please, if you're going to suggest changes to the economy, at least think about the repercussions of the idea.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 08:34

#23

Blakknite

again

Your takin this too literal...The system where it stands is not perfect and in fact the only people in favor are OOO. For new players it's either play 10 levels a day, without dying or buy an elevator pass (this is just a generalization, not getting specific). CE is require by too many things in this game, making it a necessary evil. Removing cost of the elevator is not going to throw the whole game into an unbalanced grind fest. It already is. OOO could very easily tweak things to balance out the cost. Lower the AH fees, lower cost requirements of crafting, implement a CE vendor(maybe), etc. I'm not going to do the math that's OOO's job. It's easier to change the economy than rewrite code for the whole game. IMO!! Plus it wouldn't be the first time they f***ed up the economy!!

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 09:39

#24

Kagisnad-Il

I truly hope the developers

I truly hope the developers give this a good read, look at their game, and then lock themselves up in the office working to untap its true potential.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 09:41

#25

Thunder-The-Bright

no, man, it's the other way round.

more crowns in the market are bad. we need more crown sinks. ok, time to get my economy suggestion topic on.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 09:54

#26

Gzilla

A bit depressing,

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results. Thank you, Einstein. I guess we're all a bit insane then, we keep playing a game that we all know for a fact, doesn't really listen to it's community, most of the time. This reminds me of Nexon a bit too much.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 10:03

#27

Knight-Solaire

Praise the sun! \o/

@Grittle
In a word, yes.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 12:57

#28

Klipik

@Grittle + Solaire

The point of the suggestions forums is still definitely a place for users to contribute ideas to improve the game. OOO is not required to read, consider, or accept any of the suggestions, but they wouldn't have put the forum there just for laughs. It's possible that SEGA is restricting the team so much that they aren't able to consider any of the suggestions, but I doubt they would be THAT restrictive. But then again, It's SEGA we're talking about.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 16:49

#29

Kalaina-Elderfall

The core game design of

The core game design of Spiral Knights is, in my opinion, rather amazing. It's what hooked me and what I fell in love with and why I still play this game today. The direction in which the game is going (and has been for a long time) is not.

The core gameplay remains fun. On the intrinsic vs extrinsic note, playing this game is pretty much entirely intrinsic for me. I do runs when I want to do runs, I never grind, and while I do keep an eye on my money, it's only when I'm actively deriving enjoyment out of thinking about good ways to earn more - I rarely ever actually try to do the things I come up with because I'm lazy. Of course, all of this is only possible because I pay to play. And early on, I felt like the game deserved my money. As time goes on, the idea of buying more CE is more and more like pulling teeth - consequently, I spend less on the game (and at this point never will again unless something changes).

So I don't play this game for its potential. I play it for what it is, and as long as they don't ruin what's there then I'll keep playing (this UI change, for example, crosses that line). Sure, I'll grumble about what should be done, and make some effort to try and give feedback, but it's not like I'm waiting for the day the game will be good.

And that's one thing that every gamer just needs to know these days. You can never expect that a game with potential will ever realize - or even ATTEMPT to realize- that potential. You can never assume that the game developers care about player feedback. You can never assume that updates will be improvements. There are far, far too many games out there that never live up to their potential and don't do what they should in terms of process.

What you CAN do is use past experience to your advantage. If a game has a track record of really listening to player feedback, then sure, you can probably count on that. If a game doesn't have such a track record, then you can, similarly, probably count on that not happening.

The more recent game design decisions in Spiral Knights are, to me, mindbogglingly contrasted with the beautiful core on which this game is built. I still hold out hope that one day they'll see the light and realize that they can turn up the fun factor by an extreme measure simply by tweaking a few numbers in an inspired fashion. But do I actually expect that to happen? Not a chance. Give me four hours with the numbers, and I guarantee I could make the game more fun than it is now, probably without even breaking anything. But the dev team isn't there, for whatever reason.

Everyone's different. Some people are okay with mindless grinding because they want stuff and they're too young to have money. Some people play the game in hopes that someday it will live up to its potential. And some people simply play to spend time doing a repetitive-yet-entertaining task with their friends. I would argue that only the latter is worth doing.

As the "entertaining" part of "repetitive-yet-entertaining" dwindles with OOO's current design direction, I expect people will quit more. And things aren't going to turn around, because they have no idea that they're going the wrong way. It saddens me to see a game fall short of what it could be, but like I said, you can't really expect anything more. Always take things at face value until it's proven that you can hope for better.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 17:22

#30

Klipik

You can always hope for better. Just because something's unlikely doesn't mean it's impossible, but if we all just give up on SK now the chance of it improving drops from 10% to 0%. I'd rather not see that happen.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 18:25

#31

Klipik

Another thing to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oiAnBjrIkQ0#t=874s

Do not rewind to the beginning (unless you want to watch the whole thing). Totalbiscuit critiques EA's Peter Moore's letter about EA being on the road to the worst company in america for the second time in a row. The most important part comes at 19:10.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 19:30

#32

Fehzor

Yeah, there are players like Kalaina, that play just what they want and are happy. I'm lack that, except when all my friends are stuck doing the same 2 levels over and over. Players like that, that just play whatever and are happy with receiving little to nothing, are rarities.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 20:33

#33

Addisond

As for the internal/external thing, I've always avoided playing any games for the external rewards (though tbh I feel like you're misusing those words here). This whole OOO-doesn't-update thing is kind of why I started playing tf2, which brings this whole conversation to mind- the gameplay there is almost completely disconnected from the hats and stuff, which I'm not involved in.

Next, on to your analogies- this game is really, really not zelda. It's abundantly clear that it's not the console (3-D) versions for a number of reasons, and while it has a lot of the characteristic running-around elements of the 2-D ones, the combat system in SK is completely different. The thing that I see as unique about SK and the thing that appeals to me is that the combat is largely based around prediction, team cohesion and, most importantly, survival- you have to actually avoid enemy attacks somehow, and if you ARE getting hit AT ALL it is entirely your fault (or maybe someone else on your team's).

Also, I'd be happy to run with you, but you never ask :/

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 20:39

#34

Jellybeanbopper

Gabe forever nick never

no wonder GABE got an award at the latest BAFTA's and Nick will end up working at 7-11. the games been played and run into the ground. sad when u say goodbye to guildies and friends but i think thats half the emotional blackmail tool this game uses to get people to come back. id say join us in the big leagues at TF2 and dont look back. i mean this game doesnt even support community workshop. they basically dont care what anyone thinks or says... pretty ignorant if u ask me considering we are the ones who pay their bills. ill never spend another cent on this game and am not coming back til australia has a server. which will be never lol

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 20:59

#35

Klipik-Forum

See this? This is what we call "snobbish, immature, nonconstructive, confrontational, egotistical, ignorant posting". If you're really that kind of person, if that's really what you think about this game, if you don't have the ability to say "maybe something is going on here besides the developers decided to kill their game", then leave. The community doesn't need people like you.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 21:06

#36

Zopyros-Il

BEEP BOOP

OK. Sir Johnneth has hit my rage button and I was already in a foul mood, so I'll be brief.

1. We don't know if most of the incoming features are directly OOO's own ideas. As we've established before if you bothered reading, SEGA may be pulling more strings here than we realize. And we do know that they listen to us sometimes from the multitude of features added into the Guild Hall Update. It wasn't the most important or game-changing update, but a LOT of the ideas came from forumites here.
Yes, their recent blunders are apparent among their other faults. They're working on something big. As unforgivable as the ugly new UI is, people should be willing to give them a chance until the Battle Sprites come out, which has been their big project for months now. After that, feel free to do what you want.

2. The amount of work to set a game up to work with the Workshop is more than you can imagine. Not even TF2, the first game that opened up the Workshop, is optimized to receive all the content that's put there. There were no clear guidelines for submissions (still aren't as far as I know), leading to hundreds of thousands of submissions that would take a ton of work to add into the game. I believe they're cleaning it up with the implementation of the SteamPipe, the same system that Valve's newer games are on that lets them take in Workshop pieces. That only took, what, more than a year to get working right?
Now imagine OOO's small team with a small budget trying to open up the Shop for us. They'd either open it up right away and run into the same problems TF2 did or spend months making a program or developer tools for us to make stuff, all the while we complain for new stuff.

3. OOO has no control over the servers and where they are. There are threads upon threads talking about this. Look one of those up.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 21:30

#37

Fehzor

From what I can tell, Sir Johnneth isn't entirely an outlier- most people leave the game early on when they run into the problems that the game has, long before they have to trouble themselves with fighting the jelly king.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 22:06

#38

Mawashingmachine

Balance? i say don't balance,

Balance? i say don't balance, some gear must suck in order for others to shine.

For those playing all the way from beta, the ui might be something new and something hard to get used to for now, but much as there are people hating it, there are as much people who prefers this new ui.

I dont think those promos were bad, the costumes and auras are beautiful. Well ofcourse there are always people complaining as they cant afford.

I think its absurd that there are people in the sk who thinks that gears and money should not be a result of hard work and grinding but instead should be easily accessible. we should feel fortunate that there is no character level we need to gring months and years for.

Regarding the energy system, i think its good, 100 mist can get you a long way.. Like 3 rjp runs or 3 snarbolax runs. Full 5*should not be a problem in a month or so if you spend an hour or two everyday.

Its true that there is alot of potential in sk and some might argue they are not going down the right path, but what is being negative going to help. This is the developers first experience evolving a mmorpg, give them some time.

for those who likes sk and are still playing, show off your passion and love! have some faith and backbone to support the game you play.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 22:39

#39

Ozias

May as well share my opinion

I think one of the big problems here is that OOO isn't using their creativity to make SK as fun as it could be. I can still vividly remember the first time I crashed landed on a new planet and beat a jelly to death with my proto sword. I remember delving into the clockworks for my first time and teaming up with other players to make new discoveries. However as time went on, all the depths seemed to be very repetitive and boring, and I didn't really care what would be around the corner because I knew it would probably be something I've seen before. Now obviously I was excited to get new weapons and to earn lots of crowns from the beginning, but the extrinsic rewards seemed to be greatly outweigh the intrinsic ones.

Now I play this game to buy new things and to get the reward that comes from playing, but after I've used up all my mist I turn to games such as TF2 so I can get the intrinsic rewards that make the game fun. If OOO could figure out a way to fill this game with more intrinsic rewards, everybody would find it more enjoyable.

If it were possible I would suggest finding a way to balance the clockworks. FSC is a great design in my opinion. It has an interesting layout, it has rooms that differ one from another, and it has challenges that I wouldn't mind doing over and over again. The problem is that it stands out much more than the other places within the clockworks; not only that but it gives a much bigger extrinsic reward than the others. Why would we want to spend our time somewhere that's not as fun and less rewarding than FSC? I think it would be awesome if all of the tiers gave out equal extrinsic rewards, but they also had fun level designs and challenges like those in FSC. Instead of looping through the same levels over and over I could visit another tier and fight another boss with unique rooms and enemies that are just as fun and rewarding as the other gates.

In other words, I would enjoy this game an even greater amount if OOO would put more focus into the gameplay and the intrinsic rewards rather than the brand new accessories that I would want to get my hands on. This game would be ten times as good if I could find enjoyment out of playing the game AND getting brand new weapons and possessions.

"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it." -Greg Anderson

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 22:56

#40

Ewbte

@Fehzor

said/sad enough

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 23:39

#41

Glittertind

Nice read there.
I might not agree / think the same way on absolutely everything you said, but I think it's good that you put it 'out there' anyway.

"And then I felt a bit sad, because I thought about how awesome Spiral Knights could have been if the devs had done a better job at balancing things and being creative with the ways that they added content in." -Fehzor

"I always have that feeling, that the concept of Spiral Knights holds so much untapped potential that goes so wasted as time goes on. How it could have even beaten WoW or something like that. Been the next minecraft." -Fehzor

I used to think a lot about this, how it could have been such a great game, where the creativity of the developers had no bounds, where the game just oozed with creative art and gameplay, brain twisting puzzles (possibly as good as The Legend of Zeldas) and ingenious solutions to complex problems, but instead, it seems like it is kept within the strict bounds of massacring floors upon floors of helpless enemies, mind numbing grinding, few and poorly planned updates and developers that rarely listen to what the community wants.

Of course, some of those things are just what is seems like to me. Sadly, some of those things seem awfully true too.

- - -

"Balance? i say don't balance, some gear must suck in order for others to shine." -Mawashingmachine

Uh, I see your point but... Who would make and use the bad sets then? They would just remain a joke compared to the sets that 'shine', and everyone would use them and recommend them to new players (which is what is happening with the wolver line, no?).

"For those playing all the way from beta, the ui might be something new and something hard to get used to for now, but much as there are people hating it, there are as much people who prefers this new ui." -Mawashingmachine

Well, I didn't see much complaining about the UI before the change, so people were probably content with how it was. Why anger so many people by scrapping the UI that they've used and that Three Rings have improved for years? They literally threw away years of changes (though, how much they've actually changed/improved is probably debatable).

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:16

#42

Heavy-Dragon

I will say, personally

I do still enjoy the game. The art style, gameplay, music, and general core concept are very dear to me.

There's a lot of work that could be done, a lot of balances that could be made, but right now I'm content just logging on when I feel I'd like to, playing a bit, and then doing something else.

This game doesn't strike me as one of those MMO grindfests that demand chunks of time that could be better spent, say, working, and I'm glad it doesn't entice me as such.

[And I like my iron slug.]

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 13:53

#43

Fehzor

@Mawashimono

"Balance? i say don't balance, some gear must suck in order for others to shine."

This has to do more with utilizing all of the content in the game. Right now, we've got a ton of gear that isn't very usable and a few items that are very usable. This means that there is content int he game that is essentially moot- like the iron slug. Whole play styles that are not viable, that the game even perpetrates as being viable. And you think that players should get screwed into crafting unusable gear so that those that decide to craft one of a few "chosen sets" can do well in the game?

"I dont think those promos were bad, the costumes and auras are beautiful. Well ofcourse there are always people complaining as they cant afford.

The costumes and auras are not bad for the game at all- though I feel as though they shouldn't be the focus of the game as they are for many players... and I really don't think that it's a matter of players not being able to afford it. I have several costume sets, and I still dislike them for many reasons. Also- where did I hate on costumes in the OP or anywhere? I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything about them this time.

"for those who likes sk and are still playing, show off your passion and love! have some faith and backbone to support the game you play."

After seeing the result of giving OOO money as many have done- slow content and occasional progress in the wrong direction, I'd rather not. Besides, like you said-

"Regarding the energy system, i think its good, 100 mist can get you a long way.. Like 3 rjp runs or 3 snarbolax runs. Full 5*should not be a problem in a month or so if you spend an hour or two everyday. "

There's never anything out that could make me want to use more than my mist energy in one sitting. The truth of the matter, is that I don't have faith in OOO, because there is a legitimate basis for not having it. And besides, faith in companies is just a bad idea in general. I don't think I hated on the energy system either, oh wait yes I did-

"A Legend of Zelda clone with an awful energy system."

The reason it's awful is because it is needed for progression period. Sure, it works, but is it really necessary to play the game as the work of art that it could be, or is it just getting in our way and making us grind? And I think that playing through the original Zelda games will help to answer that in the way that I did above.

That the game has the potential, and is in a few ways, superior to the Zelda games. Zelda wasn't an MMO and as such won't ever have some of the things that Spiral Knights does/did, but it did cover everything else that Spiral Knights does, albeit in a much better manner.

Like a changing world. Zelda won't ever have that. Spiral Knights used to have that.

Or like awesome multiplayer on a huge scale. Spiral Knights used to have that too, and still does to an extent.

The energy system is, while not bad for what it is, still the reason why Spiral Knights doesn't get as many players as it could. People. Don't. Like. It.

@Heavy-Dragon

Then why do players flock to FSC/RJP and do nothing else for most of the game? And have you noticed that your iron slug does the same damage numbers as Supernova? But that it roots you in place? And that it fails to stagger enemies? And you don't feel cheated by this? If the art changes are very dear to you, then what are your thoughts about the new UI?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:00

#44

Klipik

I see something I missed in my last post

"they basically dont care what anyone thinks or says... pretty ignorant if u ask me considering we are the ones who pay their bills. "

I feel like you missed the part where we said this.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 14:01

#45

Byas

> The energy system is, while not bad for what it is, still the reason why Spiral Knights doesn't get as many players as it could. People. Don't. Like. It.

It's actually one of the things that I liked the most when I was introduced to the game, it just felt much better than the usual "pay to get overpowered items" that F2P usually have (yeah, now we have Crimson Hammer and Supply Depot so I can understand if the ones who get on the game now don't like, but it used to be one of the reasons why I loved this game back in the days).

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 20:21

#46

Klipik

I agree with Byas, the energy system was definitely a draw for me as someone who generally doesn't buy games, and was getting frustrated with the Pay2Win nature or just straight-up bad quality of other F2P MMOs. It was also the fact that it was one of Steam's F2P launch titles and the only one that looked interesting and worked on Mac. (TF2 didn't work for me until recently)

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So the other day I started up the game.