Open Discussion: Brining Back the Shard Bombs? Petition Included!

Look at the "Elite Bomber Thread".
I never played LD, so I have no arguments/defence.

Letter to Mr. Daniel James Version 0.2 and Sample. Major change: it has form fields you can fill in. Feel free to test it and let me know of any feedback that you have. (Don't worry about the font and alignment for now, they will be fixed later.) Spicington's suggestion will be included in next revision.
I like to say a few things about this letter.
What it is:
- a correspondence letter between two real persons (you and Mr. James). As such, please use your real credential;
- a way for you (a P2P subscriber) to express your concern about a game that you invest in and you love. You are exercising your freedom of speech and your right as a consumer;
- a request to ask Mr. James to forward a message to SK development team because you feel the current decision overlooked some important details. This is something Mr. James can understand within seconds and bring it up in next meeting with SK development team;
- an invitation to Three Rings decision maker to a follow up discussion shall he expresses interest to do so.
What it is not:
- a channel to express your frustration or anger;
- a way to threaten the job security of SK's developers;
- a legal letter to demand for fair compensation due to the recent patch.
Now to address some comments raised.
You are wasting your time, Three Rings won't listen.
Perhaps. Aside from the obvious reason that motivates me to do this (I believe this decision needs revision, down to its rationale it begins with), it was based on a previous experience of mine with Mr. James. Some people may recall earlier Three Rings was acquired by Sega and Mr. James actually posted to the SK forum, asking the playerbase what direction the SK wanted to go. In that thread I made a couple of suggestion (such as more story development, cutscene and Antialiasing support). And one year is gone and they all became reality!
I think given the right timing, Mr. James would listen. In fact, the main strength of SK is the flexibility of the development (the developers listen). This is something you won't find in big game studio like Blizzard or Ubisoft. I think this bomb patch opens up an opportunity for us to have a conversation with Three Rings top decision maker to voice our other concern also. e.g. if I manage to get on the phone with Mr. James, besides this bomb patch, I would express my concern about CE market manipulation due to an out of date interface, how it stifles the growth of SK and how it can be done better.
Now let's look at the opportunity cost. The postage in Canada and United States are $1.05 and $0.45 respectively. (UK is £0.56 I believe.) But the upward potential of this "bet" could be big: we not only get RSS back, but we also get a shot at getting other more urgent features fixed also. Low risk, high reward, why not?
These SK developers (like Nick) are professional, they need to worry about their resume if they want to keep their jobs!
You haven't talked to a lot of hedge funds managers, do you?
Truth is that, developers (like any employees) can come and go at will. In the investment industry, often some fund managers would use client's money to invest into high risk, high reward items in their portfolio's. And when these investment items are about to drop to 0, these fund managers move on and investors suffer the loss.
Sounds familiar? I'm not suggesting any one on SK development teams would act in an unethical manner. I'm just saying that it is not a very good way to manage your investment (in this case, SK) by depending on the self-governing of the people that runs and benefits from it.
I know some individuals prefer spoon feeding and giving up their rights. I know I'm not one of these people. Hence I wrote this letter.
I love this bomb patch.
Good for you. Me and many others don't, unfortunately. :(
Upcoming Schedule:
- please help me revise the letter (anything from content to grammar and spellings). I'll post one more update tonight and (hopefully) one finalized version tomorrow noon (EST). I'll also verify the address by calling up Three Rings tomorrow;
- please re-read what I wrote earlier about what this is and what this is not. If you do decide to send this letter, please mail it within a week as it usually takes 3-5 calendar days to deliver the letter;
- if you do get a phone call, be prepared to talk about your view about this patch (what you do not like about it, what you feel should be done). If you are given the opportunity to, feel free to express what other things you feel SK should do or fix.
That's all folks. And remember, you are not alone.

I prefer the new ones.
Why? Because the old ones were ridiculously OP with my lag. All it takes is for one RSS spammer to turn up, and I'd be sure to take random damage.
This way they aren't a death sentence for those with lag.
Yep.

No matter what the community says, I dont think that OOO will ever change back the bombs, or add a new bomb that works like old RSS.
They said it, bombers make areas of damage and gunners fire bullets.

Not a single bomber agrees with the change. 99% of people who are in favor of it are lockdown sword users (and the VAST majority of those skolver clones). The selfishness of these guys is disheartening.

I like the new bombs, they just need few small tweaks (lower fuse time/bigger radius of each split shard/small damage increase).

Voicing my opinion.
Doesn't matter what my opinion is, you should have the decency to tolerate it. It's very basic manners.
Throwing around ad hominem attacks is kinda overboard, and certainly doesn't aid your cause. Regardless, I doubt posting here even matters. How often does OOO respond to the community anyway.
Edit: Haha, skolver clones. Again, why the animosity against the most powerful and efficient PvP set ingame? Look at how many good LD players use the "skolverclone" set. Yeah, it's the premier set. Didn't you know that?

"This way they aren't a death sentence for those with lag."
They aren't a death sentence for anything anymore. Plus, I bet you were killed with other things too when you lagged, not just the RSS.
"yeah [Skolver's] the premier [swordsman set]."
And the RSS was part of the premier bomber set. Didn't you know that?

The developers will never bring back the old shard bombs in their current old state for the reasons they have given. It would be absolutely silly and contradicting their own intentions, so they wouldn't do it regardless of how much great logic you throw infront of them.
Rather, you should think of ways to fix the old shard bombs but still have them be unique in how they work: make them have less range, make them not OHKO things, make them more bomb-like. But still have them retain the old shards with range that shoot out in each direction that they used to.
Then, the developers can add that bomb (with a different name than "shards", since the new shard bombs claim that name) to sit beside the new shard bombs should you convince them, and you will have a tweaked version of what you used to have.

OOO logic: replace a great bomb with a crappy bomb and then add the old bomb I as a new line.

Old Coke------> New Coke--------->Coke Classic
..Sugar-------->Corn Syrup---------> Corn Syrup
...Good-------->....Crap.....---------->.....Meh.

@Acck, that's why I only buy mexcan coke and other cocacola sodas.
Besides being able to say I buy Mexican coke (lol), I buy mexican because they still use sugar instead of corn syrup and they taste better.

@Oat, yes, after OOO fixes what they didn't like about the "great bomb". That would be OHKOing unintentional as well as not being bomb-like. Those can both be fixed before being added again, they never said that they would never add it again.

I've seen OOO make alot of absent minded decisions in the past, but this one takes the cake.
1+ Oaty

"They aren't a death sentence for anything anymore. Plus, I bet you were killed with other things too when you lagged, not just the RSS."
RSS is by far the worst abuser of lag. When I played with USA-level ping during the summer, I hardly even got hit by the projectiles. How could you? They're so predictable. With 1 red bar, they're absurd.
And by the way, Skolver is the premier pvp set *in general.* Name one set that is reliably more effective.
When you have extremely long range lag-ridden projectiles flying everywhere, quality of life goes down. It's far worse than skolver strikers, because at least I can dodge them.

Well think about it like this,
swordsmen have there toothpicks,
Gunners have there alchmers,
and bombers had RSS.
Now what do bombers have as there "go to weapon"? Mist bombs?thats gone cause of Max uv's. Nitronome?that gone because people walk out of its range before it explodes.
Oh and
"Skolver is the premier pvp set *in general.* Name one set that is reliably more effective"
How is it "premier"? Is it because it is the most used LD loadout? But if it is,then it proves that the majority of the T3 LD community is skolver clones.
Oh and a swordmens answer "skolver"
Gunners answer "shadow sun"
Bombers answer "mad bombers"
So really the most "effective" loadout depends on the players weapon class.

The most effective as in best at dealing and taking damage. Never mind caps, because anybody can stand on a point.
I'm not sure how you can misinterpret that. Do you honestly think a high level bomber can one on one an equally skilled skolverclone? Haha. Look at GvG gameplay, there's a reason why almost everybody is in skolver.
All the advantages a gunner has are mostly negated by a single guardian shield. Not to mention, gunners are much more difficult to deal damage with.
When you're playing LD, you're playing pvp. You're not playing swordsman, you're not playing bomber. You're playing pvp. See how I'm looking at this?

I feel Lockdown Bombers are more effected by this dramatic change to the RSS's mechanics than anyone.
RSS was LD Bombers only defense against "Clones" (Skolver + Toothpick). Can't imagine what they're gonna use to counter Clones now.

Letter to Mr. Daniel James Version 0.3 and Sample. I'll post another update tomorrow together with status of address verification. People interested could help me test the QR code attached in the new letter (it works on my phone alright).

People thinking only the mini-game known as Lockdown matters in the game called Spiral Knights is a joke. Only reason people in LD whined about RSS is 2 reason: They are either too fail to dodge a bomb that fires the same 8 directions each time or its because they couldn't throw crowns/money at an armor to get a max UV that made RSS useless like they can do with tempest.
Anyone with at least some common sense and isn't completely selfish knows that this update was the worse thing that could of happened to bombers. Now all I have to say left is...
Rawr, why do you believe we should make suggestions to the SK Staff themselves about how to fix the nRSS bombs? Obviously if they cared about that they would of listened to the test server feedback or not done the update at all. They didn't listen the first time, what makes you believe they would listen the 2nd time, and possibly why would they listen at all? Personally, I rather enjoy all the forum rage from players and would find it rather funny if the SK staff banned half of their forum community instead of deciding to listen.
If they listened to the test server feedback at least the new bombers would of been somewhat decent instead of just utterly trash. Also if they really cared about what people wanted we would of had a choice between pierce or elemental for our RSS replacement bombs like Rommil proposed instead of just shafting everyone that used RSS for its elemental damage.
I suppose you'll try to sum my post up as qq rage like you did to my post in the other topics. Though that is the internet.. people assume things since they can't tell how calm a person really is.

It makes sense to post what you're concerned about. In terms of RSS, I'm concerned about LD, and how lag makes it kind of absurd.

Would have, not would of. Same for could have, instead of could of. Would of sounds like "Would've", but would've is would + have, so would have is grammatically correct. I am not trying to be the grammar police, I am just helping you. If there was a time that you need to write as well as look professional, you now know not to say would of.
Well, I don't have much to say if they don't read our feedback. They obviously must see some of the feedback, since they have even posted in some suggestion forum threads before. So they don't just ignore all of it.
No, I don't think that post is a QQ rage post. Although, QQ (originally) meant "quit crying", so technically I wouldn't call your post a QQ rage post anyway. That post was calm, though. I only call a post a rage post (or rather, a thread about emotions rather than logic since not all of it is technically rage) in posts like "RIP RSS, We are holding a memorial" or "We should also omega nerf Blitz Needle and make Brandish not have explosions and make DA not shoot out bullet swords and omega nerf other things just like we omega nerfed RSS because that is totally logical and everything!"

I actually just emailed the SK staff asking if it would be possible for me (and other players) to request our nRSS to be changed to the pure elemental line. Took the idea from a post from Rommil about they should of given us a choice of what we wanted. Well see what happens but I have a feeling my logic will be flawed because of how the old RSS carried fiend bonus and fiends are weak to piercing.. so they probably figured we all wanted piercing bombs. >.>

Whoa, kind of forgot about this thread. Elita, I have to pick on two things you said.
First, your presumption that Three Rings cares more about P2P players than F2P players. I know I'm going to get a lot of slack for this because, lol money and Three Rings is greedy, but I would make the argument that they value P2P and F2P players equally in this system. The game is built in such a way that P2P players generally don't have an unfair advantage over F2P ones. The only exception that comes to mind are the OCH weapons (that decision quite honestly baffles me as it is the glaring exception to the model). Instead of a model where F2P players are completely limited by something like Mist Energy (like how many Freemium games work) they can trade and buy CE with an in game currency. This allows F2P and P2P players to support each other instead of a system where F2P are completely limited and must go P2P if they actually want to go any reasonable distance in the game. In this system, without F2P players the P2P players wouldn't have crowns to buy with CE, as opposed to other systems where the two concepts are completely independent and they just try to hook you into P2P while you are a F2P.
Second, I think it's kind of rude to imply that Spiral Knights wouldn't have had a lot of the features it did if Cleaver didn't ask and you didn't answer. I'm sure many, if not all, of the ideas were already in the works. If I had been working on Spiral Knights as a developer I would take offense that someone thinks the credit for the game's progression fell on Cleaver's brief interjection.
On that note, whoa, whoa, wtf, Blizzard listens to its customers. Like, you had to have just made that part up because it is so clear that they listen to what people say and constantly give feedback on direction and design ideas if you follow any fansite that keeps up with Blizzard.

I'm a PvE player not an LD.
Ok, so let's start off with the OLD RSS. It was powerful, strong, fast and great as a single target mauler, however it had actual crap for so called "crowd control". I did like/love the bomb, for it's ludicrous damage however... it's crowd control ability was ACTUALLY terrible, if you were surrounded in a room with a bunch of enemies the old RSS would NOT be a good choice because each shard may do a good decent amount of damage however a single shard would most likely just shatter upon hitting the first enemy and being kinda useless. I have NOT tried the nRSS mainly because it's piercing and in all honesty like Wodanct said would've appreciated if there was a vote on the what type of damage nRSS would have done. Some people prefer piercing, some elemental. So moving on to the nRSS I actually LIKE the concept of this bomb, however it NEEDS to be tweaked heavily.
The nRSS should have a faster detonation on the 2nd detonation, currently it's too slow as many people have said. The radius on the secondary blast(s) needs to be slightly larger and at the same time the shards themselves would benefit if they were slightly closer together so that the blast would overlap in some areas, which would increase damage output. The nRSS should sacrifice a little bit of the spread and range for extra damage making it a bomb that could deal good aoe damage while being risky to use. The range the shards fly should be only just outside of the initial blast radius. The secondary blast(s) would range would slightly increase to the middle of each shards. this would allow 3 hits if an enemy decides to foolishly run straight into the middle of a shard dealing good to great damage and possibly if the enemy runs directly into the center it will take all 8 hits. As powerful as this bomb will be, it's actual range will roughly the size of a 4* bomb and that could be it's penalty. Also no pushback only knockdown. Also damage would have to be tweaked for.. more or less depending on how strong the 8 hits are. For the 8 hits, it should do no more than 1.2k damage but no less than 800. -> dunno if this be in suggestions or something. Open to creative criticizing, NOT TROLLING. If there is a major flaw in this idea I will take it as creative criticism.

Although, QQ (originally) meant "quit crying".
From what I've heard, the etymology behind QQ stems from Warcraft 3 (more specifically DotA), where you used Alt+Q+Q to force quit the game, usually in rage. So when someone ragequit, they QQed.

What is up with EoS? The first page is covered with their [stuff].
Oh well, not anymore.

Got my reply asking for them to change my bomb to the pure elemental line since they ruined my rss with their pure pierce update.
Greetings,
Thank you very much for your feedback. While I understand your frustration,
I'm afraid we're not able to swap out one bomb type for another. I'm sorry.
Best wishes,
- [Name Withheld for forum purposes]

I believe in Capitalism. If companies do not listen to their customers or they make the wrong decisions (like Microsoft and Research In Motion), the market will punish them. Under this view, F2P are free riders. SK is keeping them not because OOO or the P2P are grateful, because F2P provides cheap labor. i.e. in SK, RMT (Real Money Trade) is built into the system, with OOO setting up an exchange (the CE market). F2P are just Gil (CR) farmers. P2P are the real customers that fund SK. Therefore, P2P has more say than F2P.
The above addresses your first point. If you happen to live in a Communism or Dictatorship nation, please disregard what I said above. Our world view is too different and I do not plan to convince you otherwise.
As for your second point. It is your personal opinion. As CEO, Mr. James is responsible to his customers and ultimately the Board (which represents the shareholders of Three Rings and Sega). I think this is pretty self explanatory. It has nothing to do with manner, but the way the decisions were being made and development turning deaf ears are all warning signs that, we should escalate these concern to the higher ups. This is why as I wrote in the letter, "I believe this is in the best interest of me, SK and Three Rings". It is not only about me (or the P2P of SK), but because it would be of concern to Mr. James to know that certain individuals on the SK development team is being separated further and further from SK's customers. This is not a healthy sign and for the greater good, the parties involved should know.
And I advocate we do this on a people-to-people basis, not as some random strangers from the Interweb. So the letter is structured as a correspondence letter which requires you to write down your real identity. We are not complaining and accusing of anyone in Three Rings. But recent event makes us (the customers a.k.a. P2P) very concern because it shows some warning signs we do not like. We are only requesting Mr. James to forward the message to Nick and all for re-consideration.

I just got off the phone and it looks like Three Rings' office is not opened today (current time is 1:17PM in San Francisco). I'll try again tomorrow morning.
Radiant Sun Shards IS dead.
I want my bombs back.
Seriosly, it should be another way to nerf the so called OP RSS.

No, they didn't say anything in the reply to me as to why they couldn't change our new lame RSS into the elemental line or even acknowledged the fact that we used RSS for its elemental damage and not the piercing damage. All I gathered from the reply is they understand are "frustration".. clearly they do not actually understand it or they wouldn't of done something this stupid.

These new shard bombs are not what we paid for.
We crafted, heated and uv'd the old RSS.
Not the new one.
We want the item we paid for.
No other nerf has completely changed the mechanics of a weapon in the game in the way that this did.
This was a huge step backwards.
Still do not understand why the RSS/ISB lines could not be left alone, and these new shard bombs fill a fresh line.
ooo silence is rude, unprofessional and insulting to it's PAYING player base.
ooo, we need some feedback from you concerning these changes.

A fellow forum goer brought up the point that bombies don't act like bombs. Shouldn't they be called gunbies? Maybe sworbies because apparently swords get AOE and bullets.

It's a bit insulting to the community that OOO will reply to threads about the most banal, trivial things, yet actual issues that many players are outspoken about are seemingly ignored, and even swept away to the section that has the least amount of OOO replies.
OOO if you read these suggestions at all, it wouldn't hurt to let the community know you're paying attention.

Obviously, you aren't happy with these new bombs, there's not much wrong with these new ones. Even tough there harder to use than the old ones, i would gladly give up projectiles for 3 new lines of shard bomb AND a 5 Star upgrade for ALL of those lines.

These bombs are severely underpowered. And so what if you would give up projectiles for these new bombs? That's your preference, but a lot of other people loved the projectiles, and we could have easily had the old RSS and have these new bombs in another crafting line....

@Silverquill: you gotta be kidding. No matter how you look at it, these new bombs are much worse.
1. They have no real projectiles.
2. They look like plasticky trash.
3. They're glitchy.
4. They had awful compensation for this ridiculous change.
5. OOO doesn't give a $%^& about how their updates affect us, they just might make more money this way.
Three Rings has no interest in listening to the people who their updates will affect most. On the contrary, the only people that they listened to before making updates was a bunch of noobs who liked the graphics of the bomb. Now bombers are at an even larger disadvantage and OOO isn't doing a thing about it.

I called this number again 415-615-9596 and it is the same message ("office closed, please leave a message"). Current time is 9:34AM in San Francisco.
I suspect this is just a generic number for OOO (it's meant to drop to voice mail). After lunch I'll call up Sega and see if they have any lead. Stay tuned.
If you have any other ideas to be able to talk with anyone in Three Rings on the phone, please post.
UPDATE: I believe I found the home address of Daniel T. James (age matches and location is in San Francisco Bay area). I'm not going to send to this address because business is business (and please refrain from doing so, shall you find it on the Interweb).

Well I'm glad you're not going to harass the guy at home because stalking him to the point of looking up his personal information and even letting the rest of us know you did was creepy enough.

Dorael, are you the ghost of Sorael coming back from the land of ban to haunt us? Or are you just someone with a similar name?
Wow Eltia, you're doing some real digging and I applaud your determination.

I called Sega Canada toll free, it's a voice mailbox. So if we are to proceed with mailing the letter today, it would be more proper to send to Three Rings PO Box:
Three Rings Design
PO Box 482
San Francisco, CA 94104-0482
This will deliver the letter but we don't know what would happen to them. The other alternative is to mail to Three Rings physical address, which you can find on Google Map (search Three Rings Design San Francisco):
612 Howard St # 500 San Francisco, CA 94105 United States
This address should have higher chance of success of reaching the top, but that's only if they take mails from this location. If anyone lives in San Francisco Bay Area, it would be very helpful if you can drop by the above address and see if they have mailbox of some sort. If they do, 2nd address would be our best guess for now.
A third way, would be to send to Three Rings physical address using registered mail. It works but it costs more money ($15.55 in Canada). This is probably not what we would want (unless things really, really get out of hand).

Just to clarify things. I was looking up where Daniel James would have been (who knows, maybe he would be visiting my city and I can meet him in person and deliver the letter). So I was Googling and one of these pages was from White Page, which showed all the Daniel James in San Francisco. (Turns out there were only 3-4 candidates.)
I cross referenced the age parameter with James' wiki page (which turned out to be the last page I opened on my browser). There is exactly one match. I looked up the address from white page on Google Map and it was only a few kilometers from where Three Rings is located. Then I Google'd Daniel T. James and it was connected to Three Rings according to one of these corporate executive pages.
So the "stalking" as you called it (I called it "research"), wasn't intentional. It was more a coincident thanks to the magic of Google.

Can those that are multilingual among us fill in those of us who aren't.
What is the chatter about the RSS on the other language forums?
Are the sentiments similar to the this forum?
After all, English is not the only paying language!

I twitted to Mr. James last night, asking if Three Rings physical address (612 Howard Street) would accept letter mail. I haven't heard anything back yet. But judging from pictures from Google Map, Three Rings office seems to occupy several floors of SOHO. So I believe there should be mail boxes but they probably won't be picking up the mails.
Since we don't have a better guess now, the address on Three Rings website is the closest approximation we have. So here is what I propose we do:
- I'll publish one more revision of the draft letter today with the address on OOO's website. I will cleanup the fields, alignments and fonts, and anything you guys feel should be changed;
- I say we start sending the letters after previous point is accomplished. The reasons are that:
- this patch is starting to take a toll on the community (including those who are not bombers); and
- our goal is to inform Three Rings top decision maker that we (the players) have seen warning signs in recent patch and we like to raise this concern. It has been a week since the patch has gone online and I think now is the right time to do so, before it's too late;
- after each of us has sent a letter, please report back to this thread so we have an idea of how things have progressed.
We don't need a lot of letters to be sent (but of course, more the better). If we could have 10 letters from people who know what they are talking about, that's already very good in my book.
Beyond that, we will see how the SK development team behaves. What I learned from this exercise so far is that there is no easy way to get in touch with these developers (or their decision makers). So if the design rationale of Nick and all are too far off from what some of us believe in, it's probably not only a warning sign about the development process, but that it maybe time for us to move on also.
That's not to say people should rage quit on one bad decision. Maybe we have already outgrown this game (and their development team), that's how I feel.
Old Shards: http://i48.tinypic.com/2vdfy46.png
New Shards: http://i48.tinypic.com/2rhwfer.png
I don't really like these new shards...
In T2 (the only tier I really play in), Shards was the only way for a bomber to 1v1 someone. Sure, bombers can use vaporizers to support other players, but when it's just you and one other guy (or multiple other guys for that purpose), you really need a good offensive bomb. I and many others relied on the shards for that.
Sun shards had low charge times when you had max CTR (from the recon cloak), and a nice range. You might say that they're overpowered, but honestly the first post I placed was one in a million, and although I know plenty of people who could top that in T2 the highest damages around are still swordies. Shards gave bombers a chance to actually win fights against other people (At least in T2, not sure how applicable Nitro's are in T3), because most other bombs had puny range and slow fuses (and there's still the thing with strikers being able to dash right thru vaporizers). I tried Blast Bombing once, I found that strikers could hit me and run out of the fuse pretty easily, Guardians could hit me and shield at the right time (and it would take a LOT of blast bombs to break that shield), making it only halfway useful against Reconners. This is assuming they don't have guns, and T2'ers usually boast Kilowatts, Antiguas, Alchemers, and heck, even super blasters are used. It's really easy for someone to stay out of the Super Blast Bomb's range and gun you down while you try desperately to get close to use another bomb, but ultimately they just walk (yes, WALK) out of the radius and continue gunning.
If some of you say the old shard bombs are OP, I personally am willing to accept a HALVED damage for them. I just want the good old shards back, these new shards are just...just...
Just about as useful as http://www.gtsplus.net/files/images/art/shiny/129.png
Sure, they're nice and shiny. But, really, what are you gonna do with them?