Spiral Knights - Open Discussion: Brining Back the Shard Bombs? Petition Included!

Open Discussion: Brining Back the Shard Bombs? Petition Included!

426 replies [Last post]

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 08:28

#251

Eltia

One more thing

Anyone of you good at drawing diagram? I'm thinking if we could draw a before / after diagram on what we feel the "right" hierarchy of shard bombs should be.

I have read some threads and it seems some people are confused between the following:

retaining the old RSS behaviour and including the new shard bomb behaviour (the cluster bombs) into a new line of bomb; or
removing the whole bomb patch (i.e. no cluster bombs).

This letter is written based on the first point. I'm perfectly fine with Three Rings deploy new bomb behaviour (which could use some tweaks), as long as I get my old RSS back.

So if someone could put this into a pictorial form (as in before / after), this would help clarify things a lot and avoid unnecessary argument.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 10:06

#252

Rdecoy

Keep RSS along with new bombs

I agree with Oatmaster. RSS/ISB are the bombs that i liked very much as they had range and speed. More specifically the reason for liking these bombs is - I stay way to far from the server and hence experience loads of lag. I like playing LD using these bombs along with MAD BOMBER. The advantage of these bomb is that they have range and therefore even if person is lagging there is a COMPENSATION to it made by these bombs.

Previous to these bombs, I used to hate LD just because of lag. But in recent past i got RSS/ISB and I started playing LD. But unfortunately the bombs got replaced with the new bombs and I'm back to SQUARE ONE. I hope Nick considers to bring old RSS/ISB back and make the current bombs as a new line in bomb series.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 10:16

#253

Rdecoy

Adding few more things to last post

One more thing to those ppl who think that new bombs are good.

I agree that they are spectacular when they explode. But considering the time taken to explode (twice), any one can overcome the damage dealt by the bomb. Now I feel that bombers can no more deal large amount of damage and would often killed by a gunner or a swordsman. A bomber would only become a support member to a party.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 10:19

#254

Eltia

Revised letter to CEO of Three Rings

Letter to Mr. Daniel James Version 0.4 and Sample.

Instruction:

save the PDF file to your computer and open it with Adobe Acrobat Reader;
read the letter and make sure the content reflects your opinion. This is a correspondence letter between two real person (you and Mr. James), therefore you are required to use authentic contact information;
fill in the fields in the letter. You will need to fill in these fields: your physical address (street, city, state, country, postal code), date of subscription (when you started playing SK), phone number, email address, your real and in-game names. If you are not sure how to fill in the forms, look at the above sample (or these samples);
print out the letter and sign it. Put it in an envelope addressed to:
Mr. Daniel James,
Three Rings Design,
PO Box 482,
San Francisco, CA 94104-0482,
United States
put enough postage on your envelope, or go to your neaby post office and let them do it;
mail the letter, report back to this thread and wait for news.

Last words
This is your way to voice your concern because of the continuing silence from the SK development team. While it may look straight forward to setup an online petition (such as this one), signed it and believe you have done something. History has shown us this does not work well. So if you feel that this bomb patch is not in the best interest of yourself, SK and Three Rings, please think through this again and take the right action.

Remember: no one can take away your rights unless you give them up yourselves. A better SK requires your inputs and SK development team to listen. This is your way to ensure they have heard your voice.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 12:03

#255

Eltia

Sent my letter

I voiced my concern. It's up to you guys and the Sk development team now.

I'm going to fade into the background for a bit because this is getting time consuming. But I'm willing to do one more revision of the letter for you guys (when we need to). So enjoy the game and enjoy the rest of summer. I'll post any update if I hear anything interesting.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 14:38

#256

Acck

For instance.....

This:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/62149
You don't even need to speak spanish to understand they feel it was not a good idea.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 01:01

#257

Oatmonster

Lick

Ba-da boom, ba-da bump.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:04

#258

Acck

Anything?

Hello Mr Popovich, and Mr James,

Please give us some sort of dialogue related to the shard bomb destruction.
Your actions thus far have been disgraceful.
As a paying customer, I am deeply disappointed in the recent patch.
There are ways for ooo to redeem itself in the eyes of it's paying player base.
Please lift your head out of the sand and engage your customers.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:45

#259

Acck

Answers?

Where are the answers?
Answers about shard bombs?
Answers about unexploitable real compensation for those that actually had crafted, heated and used these bombs.
Answers about ooo silence during this debacle.

How about just a little dialogue?

Something, anything?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:53

#260

Serell

Hey Nick

You said this was not something you took lightly and knew people would be unhappy. If you truly meant that, you would be here answering questions and trying to calm us down.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 16:39

#261

Acck

Nine Days...

Nine days and counting.

ooo, why won't you speak with us?
What are you afraid of?
We are all human, we all make mistakes.
Ignoring the issue will not solve anything.
There is a lot of compassion available from us.

Don't miss out on our understanding and forgiveness.
Remaining quiet, and hoping these errors will fade away is no way to keep a loyal PAYING customer base.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 16:28

#262

Oatmonster

Lick

I have created a short list of some questions that I would like answered in regard to the shard bombs. If anybody has any other questions, please let me know.

Questions I want answered:

Why was the shard bomb really changed?
Why did you release the new bombs while they were still plagued with bugs?
Are they really bugs or did you intentionally make the bombs finicky?
Why did you replace the old bombs with six new bombs? Why didn't you just add a new line?
Do you plan on buffing the new bombs?
Do you even realize that the new bombs are underpowered?
Why did you put stun, the most broken status, onto two of these underpowered bombs?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 18:13

#263

Serell

Another question

If you will never give us our old RSS back or something similar, when will the Blitz Needle get changed? It acts nothing like a gun. Well, according to reality it does, because it shoots bullets. Just like according to reality the old RSS was perfectly a bomb-like, as a shrapnel bomb. But according to you the Blitz Needle is the most broken gun ever. It acts nothing like the other guns, sacrificing damage for range. It actually acts quite the opposite, sacrificing range for massive damage (Seriously? Who uses a Blitz for range?). All the other guns are safe to use, while the Blitz is very risky. To fix the Blitz Needle is quite simple. Make all the bullets shoot straight forward instead of a spread so there is no reason to get up close. Of course nerf the damage along with that as well.

I got a $20 Steam card and was just about to use it all on SK. Then this patch came. But if you just answer a few questions, you've got an extra $20 in your pocket. Come on, it's not that hard.

EDIT : Nevermind. I forgot what you said. "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two". So the Blitz needle is A-OK in your book. But your logic is still unfair and flawed. Since guns only have to fire bullets, they have a lot of diversity in their play style. Most of the guns sacrifice damage for range, but for those that like to get up close and shoot, they have the Blitz. But bombs MUST be AoE, so people that like explosions but aren't a fan of AoE are out of luck now.

Also, you said swords are a mix of the two. The Cutter line is horrible at AoE and the Winmillion in the only sword that shoots bullets. So you have A LOT of broken swords.

Care to clarify a few things, Nick?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 17:02

#264

Deltikon

I can sort of answer those Oatmonster

Why was the shard bomb really changed?
Basically was a static aim gun that shoots powerful bullets. So the 3rongs tried to make it more bomb-like. It does look really cool and fun, but it does really need some tweaking.

Why did you release the new bombs while they were still plagued with bugs?
Rush I suppose, or they really didn't noticed it, or worse, they wanted to imply that the bugs are actually FEATURES, being all part of the new bomb. Which is stupid.

Are they really bugs or did you intentionally make the bombs finicky?
No idea, see above.

Why did you replace the old bombs with six new bombs? Why didn't you just add a new line?
Again, they wanted to change the old bombs for the reason of the 1st question. And since they were on it, they apparently added a bunch more with different damages too. Nothing wrong with that, I actually welcome new shadow bombs.

Do you plan on buffing the new bombs?
Dunno, but they should. Hopefully if they ever listen to us.

Do you even realize that the new bombs are underpowered?
Dunno, but apparently they thought it was fine, even when everyone was complaining about being underpowered, and not just in terms of damage.

Why did you put stun, the most broken status, onto two of these underpowered bombs?
Just the sun shard path has the broken status. And well, all that radiance could easily blind people, so it makes sense to give it a stun status. But they should fix the status 1st before implementing it on any new weapon.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 18:54

#265

Oatmonster

Lick

Found a great page full about the new shard bombs by Eeks. I think I'll add it to the main page, you can also find it here.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 19:34

#266

Eltia

Eeks has some interesting findings

But what concern me the most is the dead zone. And it seems if you want to cover the dead zones, you have to lay more shard bombs (which means u have to move somehow). But once you move, enemies move as well (enemies target you when you charge), making predicting enemy's position even harder.

These shard bombs have good use in corridor situation if shards always appear / drop after they hit obstacles like walls and shard damage overlaps. Don't think we have any bombs that specialize in corridor situation and shard bombs could be the first.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 19:58

#267

Oatmonster

Lick

The new bombs should do good in corridor situations. But the thing is, whenever you plant a bomb too close to a wall, there is a really high chance that the shard just disappears. The tiny radius of the secondary explosions also makes it harder to use in corridors, unless the monsters are really packed in there.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 20:53

#268

Eltia

Again

I don't think having new bomb mechanism is a problem (the new shard bombs need tweaking obviously). They seem to be good corridor bombs, which is a niche that hasn't filled in before.

But really, how is this all related to taking away our old RSS, which fills another niche (and an important one too)? Don't give me your RSS is a gun because many guns function like bombs too. I'm also very surprised OOO is not familiar with explosives in real life, like Claymore and frag mines / grenades. Their shrapnels could easily travel 15 meters. If you have problem with RSS being "OP", try to mimic RSS in a more realistic way, with the shards drop off in damage as it travels distance? That would be a more appropriate way to handle the problem you have with RSS, instead of making everything like a nail (cluster bombs) because you have a hammer (new shard bomb family).

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 21:08

#269

Silverquill

Bumpish

Look, we all know you guys are angry with the bomb update but I highly doubt OOO will remove the update. 3 Rings probobly doesnt even look at this part of the forums, so its pointless to put it here. Complain all you want, they wont change it back.

P.S. I bumped this so people could see this bullcrap.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 22:06

#270

Byas

@Silver: You probably didn't

@Silver: You probably didn't even read the last posts, right? Right now people are discussing about having the old RSS and the new ones existing in-game at the same time, there's no need to remove this crappy line, (maybe they could even buff it to make it at least useful) all they need to do is put the old RSS back in the game as another line that can coexist peacefully with the new ones.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 22:22

#271

Dorael

Well

Well considering the very reason they removed it in the first place, it's unlikely they'll bring it back. To them, it's an issue of play style, not balance. Which probably makes all the comparisons that people keep doing about swords and guns moot in their minds.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 22:30

#272

Serell

...

Issue of play style? What? Because they didn't enjoy the old RSS they believed no one else did? Heck, I loved my old ISB!

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 22:32

#273

Roarr

hell, i would choose the old

hell, i would choose the old isb over the new shard bombs

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 22:40

#274

Serell

ikr?

old ISB was the worst bomb ever, but it was a ton of fun! The new shard bombs are just meh.... they aren't my style, but I can see other people enjoying them. Still don't understand why we couldn't have kept the old along with the new.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 06:04

#275

Eltia

Anyone with army background

Anyone working as an infantry or in engineer corps, or knows someone in them? I start to think we should compile a report on how frag nades / mines actually work in real life, and mail it to Mr. James and Mr. Popovich. This way they have a basis to know that bombs like original RSS does exist in real life and people have been using it in combat. If they found the original RSS isn't "bomb like", that's because they haven't done their homework and they were blaming the "not bomb like" behaviour on their wrong model.

The new cluster bombs do not come to me as a surprise to be a niche bomb. Because if you look at cluster bomb in real life, they are usually used when there is certain geometric structure of the target that the bomb could exploit. e.g. corridors in SK are similar to railways or power lines in real life, in which both cluster bombs can take advantage of.

If RSS is to be modeled properly after frag nades or mines (most likely the former, as we don't have mines yet in SK and it's likely to be in a new line), it's usually use in short range in conjunction with other weapons. Shrapnel have a fair range (15 meters from what I'm reading) but the kill zone is a lot smaller (around 5 meters). What this means is, RSS should be tweaked so that the damage on projectiles should overlap and their damage should decrease as they travel distance. That would be a more proper "fix" that is realistic, fills a niche for bomber and doesn't cause rage storm among the player base.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 06:19

#276

Juances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_grenade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_grenade#Sting

According to the last one, shards shoudl also bounce like an alchemer and inflict stun>:D

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 06:26

#277

Eltia

@Juances

Yea these are the first articles I read. The original RSS doesn't bounce off surface, so it's more like a stationary frag nade: you prime the nade and lay it at strategic points, when the nade blows up the shrapnel damage nearby targets. The shrapnel has limited range and damage decreases as they travel distance (approaches 0 damage eventually). So it does have a clear purpose, just that OOO didn't tweak it properly and then blamed it on RSS "not very bomb like".

Just one tweak (decrease damage according to distance traveled by shards). Then you have one working RSS. Why is it so hard?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 05:50

#278

Acck

14 days........

14 days and still counting.
ooo, Please talk with us.
Why won't you talk with us?
Please answer the questions at hand.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:36

#279

Addisond

I'm not terribly clear on the precise application of this bomb PvE-wise, but the old RSS was the only effective PvP damage bomb, and pretty much every bomber I know is pissed off. So yeah, I'd like it changed back :3

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 17:36

#280

Kon-Ron

at least fix the new bombs, all work like a kick in the [bucket] for the players

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 00:33

#281

Roarr

#281

You can't reason with OOO on bringing the old rss back cuz they simply cant reason at all when it comes to a bomb nerf. The thought process was horrible(nick's almighty thinking process about rss wasnt behaving like a bomb), and OOO would lose even more credibility if they initiate a bring back.

Anyone else thinks the Bombies in Legion of Almire dont behave like a bomb?

The only thing is to suggest a similar bomb in another thread and find another 280 supporting comments.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:34

#282

Roarr

#281

doubled

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 05:17

#283

Acck

Other people think......

Yes Roarr, other people think that about bombies......
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/62364#comment-464384

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:59

#284

Eltia

Shameless self promotion

Scrollup a bit and you will find the letter to OOO CEO.

Anyone who has played SK for a while would have known any petition (or a thread with the word in it) are automatically cursed to doom in ignore hell for eternity.

Not saying letter would guarantee to work, but it's a low risk, high reward bet. It's a good way to put the right words to the right ears. I hope you guys would give this more thought.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 08:57

#285

Serell

...

Sorry, but I can't send a letter. I wish I could >.<

@Addisond : Get those bombers to sign this petition :P

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:51

#286

Oatmonster

Lick

OOO's community manager will post this:

"> Yes, Jessica Nunn. We're sorry for offending you.

Wait, what?"

But they won't even talk to us about this? What's up with that? ._.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:17

#287

Serell

...

It isn't Eurydices place to talk about the shard bombs. :/

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:25

#288

Softhead

Eury isn't a Dev.

She just helps with support.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:27

#289

Oatmonster

Lick

She is the "community manager" which is in essence a public relations person. So far, relations have not been good and she goes off and does the most nonsensical things.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 15:34

#290

Softhead

Maybe she does her "Nonsensical" things,

When OOO doesn't have any info?

I mean, for all we know, she may be ordered to relay OOO's messages...

If they decide.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 15:36

#291

Eltia

What Eury could have done

that is within her job description: to acknowledge that the concern about removing old RSS decision has been propagated through the proper channel.

Why is it so hard to do it. It isn't a lot of typing, it's well within her job description and it could ease the community's rage a little.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:24

#292

Dorael

@Eltia

You're assuming too many things in suggesting that Eurydice has to answer to us. It's entirely possible that Three Rings is firm in their decision about the RSS change and don't see anything wrong with how it was handled. They could liken all the rage over this to similar rage that happens all the time. It's not like this was the first big or controversial change. Should they respond every time some portion of the population has complaints?

The idea behind a community manager is to manage the community. This varies depending on the company and circumstance. In large games with a truly staggering player-base, sometimes CMs are the voice between the Devs and the players. In this game, I think it's fairly clear that's not the case. It's not like we don't see the occasional Dev posting about things when they feel they have something that needs to be said. Eury doesn't need to be their mouthpiece and I don't think it's fair to blame her for not having to say what people want to hear.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:48

#293

The-Rawrcake

"But they won't even talk to

"But they won't even talk to us about this? What's up with that? ._."

Not only is Eury not a developer, but in addition to that, the issue with this statement is that OOO has given you the reasons why they are not going to bring back the old shard bombs yet the best you have done so far is to mindlessly post in this thread and refuse to accept any reason they have given you through the patch notes or the thread Nick has posted in the arsenal.

"Why was the shard bomb really changed?"

Read the patch notes posted by a developer. Read people's responses. If you seriously cannot answer this question by now with the developer's own words, you should get at least a basic education to learn how to read before returning to this thread. Refrain from attacking the developers if you have a mental deficiency.

"Why did you release the new bombs while they were still plagued with bugs?"

You do not understand how developing works, and you have no idea how difficult it is. Are you simply asking this question to sound like a 7-year-old brat?

"Are they really bugs or did you intentionally make the bombs finicky?"

Yeah, I was right. This is why they will never take you nor your pathetic thread seriously.

The reason they haven't posted in this thread is because they have no need to.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:57

#294

Oatmonster

Lick

@Dorael, As Community Manager, Eurydice is supposed to act as a channel between us and OOO. I don't expect her to know the answers and certainly don't expect her to change the shard bombs back. What I expect from her is to tell us the information she does know, and if she actually knows nothing, I'd expect her to at least say it. Instead, we get a fat load of nothing.

@The-Rawrcake, You're right, I don't know the first thing about coding a game. However, I do know that in general, it is a bad idea to send out a shoddy product and then ignore the complaints you get. From this post, OOO states "we also want you to know that we take changes like this seriously. We greatly appreciate the testing and feedback that many of you provided for us."

If they took changes like this seriously, they would probably at least say more than what is in the patch notes; instead of just sitting on their thumbs, regarding the change. They also obviously appreciated the testing feedback when they changed nothing from the test server.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:58

#295

The-Rawrcake

"However, I do know that in

"However, I do know that in general, it is a bad idea to send out a shoddy product and then ignore the complaints you get."

They are fixing bugs with it, and just have fixed a few with the patch notes.

They do not need to hold your hand along the way just so you feel like they are still there for you and still doing something for you. They are in fact fixing the new shard bombs' bugs, and they are in fact aware that people want them buffed. Going about buffing them is not an easy decision in the shoes of an actual developer. This is another reason why they will not post (community support nor a developer) regarding buffs.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:58

#296

Serell

....

Eury doesn't need to act as a channel between us and OOO. This game isn't that big. Also, the Devs may not want her to say anything about the shards. She could get fired.

So I don't mind Eury not saying anything about the shards. What I do mind is that Nick is completely ignoring us... He replied to my Stun bug report, which was much needed, but why not about the shards? ._.

"Read the patch notes posted by a developer. Read people's responses. If you seriously cannot answer this question by now with the developer's own words, you should get at least a basic education to learn how to read before returning to this thread. Refrain from attacking the developers if you have a mental deficiency."

The thing is their reason is complete BS.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:42

#297

Oatmonster

Lick

@The-Rawrcake, From the patch notes:
- Shard bomb shards no longer collide with players in Lockdown.
- Shard bomb shards no longer pass through certain force barriers.

The first change I can understand and am grateful for. The second change, not so much. There are still other weapons that still travel through force barriers, and they decide to fix the weakest one.

One of the things that I'm upset about is the fact that knowing there were bugs, they released the new bombs anyway. Instead of holding the update back, and fixing bugs/listening to test server feedback, they just went and released it. As far as I know, it is common practice to design a good product, and then release it to a product. OOO had every chance to do this and the people on the test server even made them aware of the bugs and shortcomings that the new bomb had. It has been shown that OOO has no problem holding back content to get it right. They did it with the LD map stadium didn't they?

How have I been acting like a 7 year old? As far as I can see, I have acted quite maturely; listing out my complaints, concerns, findings, and reasonings of others. I have made thought out arguments, and brought up valid points. Even though changing back the bombs without a second thought would be a stretch, OOO has yet to give any other reason's nor responses, besides their original RSS doesn't act like a bomb.

Right now, the shard bombs' damage to difficulty ratio is very skewed. Sure it can par damage in certain conditions, but those come once in a blue moon. Take alchemers as an example. They can be somewhat tricky to use, but when you use them right, they are very capable of one hit killing. Most swords take even less effort to use; often coming with fire and forget charge attacks.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 21:45

#298

Byas

They are in fact fixing the

They are in fact fixing the new shard bombs' bugs, and they are in fact aware that people want them buffed. Going about buffing them is not an easy decision in the shoes of an actual developer.
And that's why they shouldn't even have released them before they fixed the bugs. I mean, come on people talked about the bugs in the test server and still they released it anyway. But that was an easy decision, just like ignoring the effing feedback that they got about the bombs being crap and that there was no need to completely delete the old RSS, while even buffing something that's almost worthless is a hard decision... Seems legit.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:17

#299

Softhead

What most non-bombers think of our complaints(not OOO).

http://noseshark.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/d50y02f

It's sad.

But unfortuantly true.....

(Even some Demos as well....)

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:27

#300

Oatmonster

Lick

@Atrumvindex, Yeah, the future was too movie-like, so they changed it.

Added more threads to the list of threads concerning the RSS:
Lizzi's thread

Tsubasa's thread

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Open Discussion: Brining Back the Shard Bombs? Petition Included!