Spiral Knights - Suggestions for Suggestions

Suggestions for Suggestions - Read before posting!

6 replies [Last post]

Mon, 06/01/2015 - 02:00

Xephyris

The suggestions forum is a wondrous thing; it has the potential to enable players to tell the devs what they want in the game, and for the devs to deliver. E.g. battle sprites.

So before you post suggestions in this forum, take these points into consideration:

1. Will your suggestion actually improve the game? i.e. increase enjoyment of the game, increase actual playable content and add new things to do. There's no point in having a billion new slime type monsters or a super powerful new sword that only vanguards can get, etc. These things do not add to the game. A game is a carefully crafted and balanced system with restrictions on some things, so maybe think twice before requesting that new weapons and monsters are added purely for the sake of them being added and because you thought you had a good idea.

2. Know that OOO pays professional game designers who work to balance the game and come up with good gameplay ideas, and that what you think is a great idea may not be. Don't bother to fully flesh out a concept down to effects, damage, and colour. They have a design team for that, so just suggest a concept or idea. And don't be bummed out and complain that the devs ignore the suggestion forums. If an idea is good and is backed by the community of players, the devs will notice and implement it. Again, E.g. battle sprites.

3. Everyone hates walls of text. Break up your suggestion into small, digestible summary points rather than an essay on the merits of your idea. Keep it concise. More people will read your suggestion, and thus you will get more feedback.

4. Know that people will almost certainly criticise your idea, so be prepared and don't whinge about it. This is a forum; you can voice your idea, and other people can voice theirs. And if 50 people are telling you that a certain aspect of your suggestion sucks, it probably does. Accept suggestions and criticisms and take them into account. No complaining that the suggestions forum is a 'hostile environment'.

5. Think about the feasibility of your idea in terms of implementation, cost and time to the devs. No, the devs are not going to spend weeks of solid work hours re-balancing the system for an idea that doesn't improve gameplay.

6. Don't suggest that obvious problems everyone knows about need fixing. E.g.: "Heating needs to be fixed!!", "Moonstone and valestone are useless!!!", "Bombs are underpowered!!!". These are known problems, so don't bother posting them.

7. Don't post an idea and then state that you 'know it's a dumb idea' or 'isn't feasible'. Don't post anything containing "I know it's dumb, but wouldn't it be cool if..." This is a forum for suggestions to the development team that could potentially be included in the game. Don't flood it with posts that aren't legitimate suggestions.

8. Don't bump dead posts! Let them die graciously. If your post gets no replies and moves on the next few pages of the forum, it doesn't mean no one saw it or read it. Don't bump the post or beg for comments and feedback.

So go through these 8 rules before you post, and the suggestions forum will be a better place.

TL;DR: Just read the bold stuff.
:)

Mon, 06/01/2015 - 03:45

Hexzyle

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/64614#comment-533554
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/77253#comment-676028

That reminds me of this thread:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/42637

I get the feeling I could communicate on the forums entirely through links to older posts that have said the same thing.

Mon, 06/01/2015 - 14:49

Qwez

Hex! You could be the Bopp of the Suggestion foorims

Either that, or we could have an endless tunnel of repeated links to previous posts like the Reddit switcharoo... Would be so much fun.

"1. Will your suggestion actually improve the game?"
"There's no point in having a billion new slime type monsters or a super powerful new sword that only vanguards can get"
Uhhhh I'd be a little pretty excited about new slime monsters... slimes are kind of boring except for Toxigels and Toxoils. Those guys are coolerest.
A super powerful new sword could improve the game to some people, but it might make it boring to others. It's hard to arbitrarily decide how much an idea would improve the game until you get down to the details... What if the super-powerful sword was really slow and heavy? What if it was a pickup in a part of a special mission and you dropped the sword to slash with it? Would it be balanced? Would it be cool? Would it add to the game? Maybe.
You could argue anything would improve a game. Someone could argue that adding cute pony mounts would make it really kawaii desuu~ and attract more (different) players. "actually improve" is quite subjective, it shouldn't be something that you think about before you suggest something. The foorimers and devs can deal with whether or not your suggestion "improves" the game.

"2. ... Don't bother to fully flesh out a concept down to effects, damage, and colour."
Kentard's Equipment? Snarby gun? Playable Gremlins by Rogdon?
EDIT No.9001: link to Kentard imageshack profile (to look for all his purdy pictures from his thread, cuz the links are borked)
So you don't like puurdy pictures? okey. I thought they meant a decent post was high quality.
"If an idea is good and is backed by the community of players, the devs will notice and implement it. Again, E.g. battle sprites."
hahahahahhh... "If an idea is good..." "battle sprites"

"3. Everyone hates walls of text."
Everyone hates walls of text done poorly. I enjoyed reading through Luguiru's walls of ramblings and banter. I have not yet found a replacement for my lugnut rambles ._.

"4. ...don't whinge about it..."
whine-cringe? Cool. New word.

"5. Think about the feasibility of your idea in terms of implementation, cost and time to the devs."
Really? Suggestions are suggestions, and the devs pick what they want to do. Whether those things take a long time to implement (gunner update), or very little time to implement(dash 'n bash) are irrelevant to the suggestion. The main issue is whether or not the suggestion is feasible within the scope of the game world; Whether it could be a part of the Spiral Knight universe. We could have mounts, houses, flying ships, and lightsabers, but we can't have kawaii magical fairy princesses (well depending on further developments with the Core and the fairies in FSC, there could be magical fairy princesses, but definitely not kawaii ones).
"No, the devs are not going to spend weeks of solid work hours re-balancing the system for an idea that doesn't improve gameplay."
You think people just know that their suggestion is not going to improve gameplay? And if a suggestion really isn't going to improve gameplay, people can discuss it, and pick apart suggestion and utilize useful pieces like in Rogdon's post where 'dash and bash' were singled out and implemented.

"6. ....these are known problems, so don't bother posting them."
wat.
How do you expect things that need to be fixed to ever be fixed if we outright ignore the problems. Instead, people should use the searchbar to see if there's already been discussion on what you're proposing, and post accordingly. If you have something different to bring to a commonly discussed issue, then it's fine to post.
-----------
Yeah... maybe they won't do weeks of solid work to re-balance the system to implement playable gremlins like Rogdon suggested, but they sure picked a part of it to implement. Going by your rules, Rogdon would've scrapped it (because it was a fairly in depth suggestion) and we wouldn't have 'dash and bash'. (though it took them like roughly two months from when Rogdon suggested it or so)

Mon, 06/01/2015 - 21:25

Xephyris

boop

@Hexzyle Yes I have already read all the posts you linked before I posted this topic because I used the search bar. This topic is more specific for suggestion posts. Thank you for pointing them out though.

@Qwez All your points are true, my topic isn't that you just shouldn't post if it doesn't meet these criteria. This list is just a bunch of things to think about before you post to improve the general quality and usefulness of posts in the suggestions forum. Hence why I said "take these points into consideration".

Re: 1. Note that I'm not expecting people making suggestions to inherently understand what makes something enhance gameplay. That is why this first point is a question. It is meant to be taken into consideration before posting.

Re: 2. I am speaking from the point of view as a game designer who worked on a game that had some similar aspects to spiralknights, and also had a suggestions forum. The dev team, myself included, didn't really pay attention to all the concept art the players made, and while we appreciated their enthusiasm and effort, we were just looking for ideas for what the players want. Not saying all the developers in the world have the exact same mindset but I imagine OOO are the same.

Re: 3. Hyperbole for effect. Apologies. Most people I know do not enjoy reading through walls of text. Note also that I'm not saying lots of writing is bad, but if it is not sectioned it is difficult to read. This is why essays and stories have a paragraph structure.

Re: 5. No I'm not saying all players must know what improves gameplay, I'm saying you should actually think about how or if it will improve gameplay before posting. Many players simply just post suggestions for ideas that are cool but I'm sure if they gave a few minutes of thought they could tweak the idea to be more suitable for gameplay.

Re: 6. You basically just re-said what I said? I'm agreeing with you. Perhaps I didn't word it very well.

These are all things that I personally appreciated people doing in the suggestions forum for the game I was working on. So while they may seem strange perhaps from a players perspective, from a devs perspective it makes the whole 'player suggestion' thing a lot more usable.

P.S. 'whinge' is british/australian slang and basically means whine/complain.

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 21:01

Blandaxt

suggestions

@original post:

#1.

From my perspective, anything new to the game is something of great value that will improve the game, but you are right that posters who post something needs to at least be able to respond to the question of how will this new idea improve the game in whole. But I do not think having a million suggestions about slime monsters is a bad thing. As long as each slime is unique and is not the same copy and paste from a previous suggestion, then there is no problem with posting that idea.

#2.

I understand your idea of saying not every idea is not a good idea, but that is up for the developers to decide. We as the forum community can disagree with the poster and say we reject that particular idea, but if the developers were to look at it and say yes I like this idea and I can work with it, then whatever we have said as a community means nothing to the possibility of that idea being implemented. Battle sprites is a good example of an idea that a player suggested in the suggestion forums that got it, but it is not a good example of how the developers chooses their ideas. We have no information of how the developers judges what should be or should not be in the game. We can assume that with a great concept and good formatting, that the idea has a higher chance to get implemented, but we cannot assume that by it getting supported by the players in the forums, that it would have a higher chance than normal for the idea to be implemented.

#3.

I personally do not mind walls of text. I read the idea and if I like it I post, if I feel that it should change I post and if I feel it's a waste of time I ignore it and don't post. But the community has shown me that many other people are different from me and that people who matches my preferences are Rare. The majority of readers like to have an easier time to read, and so it is true that a thread will get more readers if it is in an easy to read format.

#4.

No complaining that the suggestions forum is a 'hostile environment'.

I don't understand what you mean by this. The forums can become very hostile for any player if the players on the forums start to target that player. Her is a perfect example. When forumers starts to directly comment about a player and no longer about the thread in topic, then it certainly is a hostile environment. Comment such as:

- "Love how he's so thick"

- "@Blandaxt:have you tried making good intelligent suggestions"

- "Come back when your alot more mature"

- "The next new user I see whose name starts with "BL" I'm going to wallop."

*Or even This:

- "Blandaxt=The Moron"

*Also this:

- "childish nuisance'"

And of course many, many, more to come:

- "Killerot, I thought I saw the most idiotic things ever, Until i saw your comment. Please just get out."

- "So you ARE Smorgn!"

- "I highly doubt 'Cyber bullying' covers someone being an idiot and therefore ridiculed for it"

- "deal with imprudent, rude, self-centered children who don't understand critisim"

- "It's hard to take you seriously with your horrible English"

- "Blandaxt has a history of doing stupid and obnoxious things"

- "present yourself as a 5yr old"

- "You choose to continue being idiotic"

Granted that the victims might not be all that innocent, but it does not change the fact that the forums can become a very aggressive environment at any moment. So it is always prudent in those situations to either use the spiral knights support desk even if nothing will be done much about the situation/problem. If it does go beyond the limit where they start to post personal information, then the law enforcers is the best option.

Though i cannot believe these players are being tolerated by OOO even though the forum rules clearly state that " "DO NOT:

Post personal attacks, or anything intended to insult or belittle another person (this includes both players AND staff members)." " as the first Rule .

#5.

Completely disagree with number 5. This is not something we as players or forumers need to put into our problem solving when thinking about posting our ideas. This whole section is only for the developers to think about if they approve of implementing the idea. We are not part of three rings or any other company that support three rings and do not run or have any information regarding their financial yearly budgets. This whole section of problem solving is all an internal process that three rings and the spiral knights administration staff will deal with when creating new content.

If we had to constantly think about the how, we would get a thread like this where were discussing the possibilities and not the variation of the idea base on previous games who have done capes differently.

#6.

I disagree with number 6 because if a player is posting a suggestion to how these problems can be fixed, then that is perfectly fine and great. But if they are posting that it simply needs to be fixed without actually posting an idea on how to fix it, then that is not okay. So really, there is nothing wrong with posting an idea to how to fix these problems we as players are having a problem with.

#7.

Number 7 describes itself and basically is saying if you are not confident in a suggestion, do not post it. Well, i am completely behind this idea, but posting this idea on a separate private forum where other people can look at the idea and refine it or completely crush it would be a good idea. If it passes the refinement process, then posting it here would be a great idea because that idea has been expanded enough so that it gives readers a good picture of what you are suggesting.

#8.

I use to agree with this idea sense i have been getting so much gripe and negative comments from players in the suggestion forums:

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53599

- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/52241

And a forum administrator has sent me an in-game warning that i will be banned from sk if i were to continue this necro spree, But this recent trend of necroing has been happening and the forum administrators has not reacted at all. And a kind of well know player commented that "If you're replying to a post with good words, then it's not bad to "necro" a thread. However if you just "bump" a thread with nothing to add, then it's frowned upon. " http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63597#comment-979961 . So i am thinking maybe it is okay to necro and that maybe you are wrong about the do not necro rule. But of course, the forum administrators are still very ambiguous about the do not necro Rule "DO NOT: Post spam or other nonsense that disrupts the forum's formatting, functionality, or usability, including quote pyramids or "bump" posts." sense we do not know how old a post has to be before it is considered necro? Or if necroing is allowed at all?

The same way this thread was necroed. "http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/70569"

Or this one too. "http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53120?page=7"

- So until a more concrete necro rule is created, i will not support the do not necro rule.

#9.

This is a rule i created for myself in most of my post and others can adapt if you want. Try to post at the end of the original post "I appreciate your response to my idea and will try to read all of the replies as prudent as i can. Any post that appears as spam in nature or approaches the topic in an aggressive tone, i will avoid due to concern for my limited time and derail of the thread." Something as a disclaimer to how I will approach the replies to the thread so that other will not be surprised to how they will be treated. I use to always do that during my troubled times, but I seemed to have lost practice because it has gotten a bit comfortable around here. Maybe I need to restart.

Anyway, that I all I have to say for this thread. Nice suggestion and keep on posting.

Thu, 06/04/2015 - 10:13

Supnaplamqw

Lol

1.I would say that this would be far too obvious,except the way you worded its associated notes implies a flaw within your logic. New monsters definitely improve to the content as long as they are done uniquely and unbrokenly.Each slime type have their little niche,if we can make more niches,why not make more slimes?Also,your sword idea;A vanguard-only sword isn't really bad considering equipment is even more tier-based with the introduction of ranking requirements.A super powerful weapon doesn't have to be overpowered,just used correctly at the right settings.Monsters need to be horribly updated anyway.

2,3,and 4 are also self explanatory,but I don't have anything to say about it.

5.is where shit goes down.I doubt this would be anything more than a subjective discussion.Looking at OOO now,I think you're taking this thread too seriously.

6 is self explanatory,but in how that idea is wrong.There is different ways to do different things,each with their own results.Discouraging this very well could eliminate the best of solutions.

7.the OP is probably unsure.One of the best things about suggestions forums is to see whether your suggestion is actually good.

8. sucks cause they were some good ideas that got little attention.

I think you should leave this up to the actual forum host OOO.I don't see much more that adds to the basic rules of forum posting

Thu, 06/04/2015 - 11:58

Fangel

Meh...

Rules on suggestions aren't really all that great. Only real "rule" set in place is that if you post something, don't be too attached to it else the criticism will get way too personal.

As for the rules in the post...
1. Will your suggestion actually improve the game?
A good thing to ask yourself, but is highly subjective. Many players do not think in terms of game design, and thus assume mostly anything will improve the game. "Nintendo cross-overs" won't help the game because that's not a game design thing, but it would help bring more potential players in. However, from a business stance, that's never going to happen without SEGA's direct involvement, and they haven't really been up to snuff.

It's a good thing to say, but again, you're expecting every player to think like you. Forum regulars will tell those posters what's faulty with a faulty suggestion. How is up to them.

2. Know that OOO pays professional game designers who work to balance the game and come up with good gameplay ideas, and that what you think is a great idea may not be.
Speaks for itself honestly. Not really a rule so much as a harsh truth. Doesn't mean we can't make bad suggestions with something redeemable in them, because as long as it sparks interest or an "a-ha!" moment then our suggestion is effective.

3. Everyone hates walls of text.
This. Reasonable amounts of formatting is required to get criticism about your suggestion. It's all about communication after all, and if you can't communicate, then people aren't going to read your suggestion. Luckily, we don't have too many wall of texts being posted, as new suggestion knights typically only write one paragraph.

4. Know that people will almost certainly criticise your idea, so be prepared and don't whinge about it.
Yes to this too. "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen," but in our forum mode.

5. Think about the feasibility of your idea in terms of implementation, cost and time to the devs.
Going to have to start disagreeing at this point. It's okay to suggest something that can take a long time, just don't be expecting it to be coming out two updates from now. Certain suggestions would be ridiculous (such as a "first person open world 100+ player boss battle!"), and as such things should be suggested only within the parameters that it's original and doesn't affect the current game's design or business model. Yes, Three Rings did change their business model, but we're suggesting things for their game and not for their wallets, eh?

Suggesting ridiculous things is fine as long as they have something in them that is redeeming. The ""first person open world 100+ player boss battle!" thing I used as an example? Pick out one of those options that doesn't affect game design - such as the open world part. That player might think an open world level would be good, and explain it in the suggestion alongside the first person and 100+ player boss battle. The suggestion as a whole might be bad, but certain aspects would be good.

6. Don't suggest that obvious problems everyone knows about need fixing.
Disagreeing here too. Without talking about them, they are not "fixed". We have talked about heating many times, and repeating the same things over and over and gathering support for it does bring good for us. Take a look at what we have now - after years of complaining we had mist removed! Now, the forge is something that needs to stay, but can be tweaked so it's not the same wall that mist was back in the day. An example would be a forge pass, attuned to the old elevator pass system.
We should bother posting these things. We should have a forge solution at the top of the suggestions every week IMO, so that is bringing around new ideas, new solutions, new problems, and overall, keeps the community talking about it. The forge isn't just going to suddenly be okay, so let's talk about it.

7. Don't post an idea and then state that you 'know it's a dumb idea' or 'isn't feasible'. Don't post anything containing "I know it's dumb, but wouldn't it be cool if..."
Same thoughts here as up there.

8. Don't bump dead posts! Let them die graciously.
Posts that are relevant after a long time (i.e. event threads, levels such as the core, etc) have every right to be given life again. If there's a negative reception to the idea, then yeah, maybe leave it alone, but things that are problem solving or reworking things are A-OK to necro. Bumping thread? Yeah no, always add something to the old threads you push back to the front page.

Overall, rules on the suggestions forums really just boil down to "be reasonable, realize this is a game and respect its boundaries, and don't be mean to your fellow forumers". Suggest whatever you want, just know that the 357th dual wielding thread probably is going to have the same reception to the 356th one unless you suggest it to be something new, i.e. not "you're shieldless and do more damage". There are 356 threads saying why that doesn't work, yours isn't any different when you use the same words.

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Suggestions for Suggestions - Read before posting!