Spiral Knights - Buff Cutters: Make them Worthwhile

Buff Cutters: Make them Worthwhile

57 replies [Last post]

Sat, 04/13/2013 - 20:15

Mrgrey

Hello everyone,

For starters I'd like to say:
-DVS: Dread Venom Striker http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Dread_Venom_Striker
-WHB: Wild Hunting Blade http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Wild_Hunting_Blade
-Didn't want to necro a thread on this topic.
-Felt that it was better to have a focus thread on this, than comment in one of the many threads focusing on a ton of nerfs/buffs.
-Don't understand why BALANCING hasn't occured of existing weapons (cutters, and other weapons alike), and believe that balancing should be focused on instead of new content (excluding the UI, that needs immediate attention).
-A lot of the info of this topic was brought to my attention due to LD play. I do however SOLELY use the cutter lines, because they're SO much fun in PvE :3
-My notes are points made within posts that I felt were important

Good reads on topic:

Interruption on Charge: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/52824
   -Notes:
   Why they "shouldn't"(sarcasm) get buffs: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/78373#comment-686937
   -Notes:
   I tried doing some of these, and quickly realized that whatever shock-inflicting weapon I used, I was better off just using that. Pulsar: Range,Shock, and knockback. V. Tempest: Unless a gunner comes at me in LD, I can just keep spamming and have better results (unless monster/enemy has resistance). Shock Brandish: Faster damage output (due to having less swings for full damage), and charge is good.The list goes on, and honestly it made me feel that if I was going to NEED other weapons for ONE weapon to be DECENT, it's a waste of my weapon slot.

Quick suggestions from other threads that I think are worth considering or viewing:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/72166Â
   -Notes:
   "Cutter/Striker/HB/WHB/VS/DVS:
       1: Remove all knockback on "ghost" swings.
       2: Increase damage per swing.
       3: Reduce knock back on the first 4 swings of the combo, increase knockback on 5th swing" -Nineball Seraph

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/67998
   -Notes:
   "Cutter Line Buffs"
       1: Comment 20 Tsubasa-No-Me
           • Include interruption on ghost swings
           • Have DVS leave a poison cloud behind ghost swings
           • Don't give WHB strong stun, as Suda deserves that. Maybe "[Good] Chance of Moderate Stun" instead
       2: Comment 17 by Xxpapaya (Papaya)
           • Assasins want to be able to kill targets quickly, and efficiently (living after process of a charge/ combo). Cutters are supposed to be assasin weapons, but they somewhat fail right now.
       3: Comment 21 by Kimahsonite
           • Fair or even Slight Chance of Causing Moderate Stun [to WHB] would be acceptable (as this is applied to 10 swings, and maybe boosted for charge)
       4: Comment 25 by Tsubasa-No-Me (Tsu)
           • Clouds are small, don't last long, and move in direction of swing (behind and backward of attacker)
       5: Comment 28 by Arctifice
           • MOST CRUCIAL BUFF IS HAVING THE GHOST ATTACKS HIT THEIR TARGETS! Since they miss so often, DPS often suffers.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53120?page=4#comment-534411
   -Notes:
   -Wolvers:
   • Aren't Fast
   • Attacks aren't difficult to avoid- thus rendering the semi-useless
   • Alphas get predictable similarily to how predictable normal wolvers are
   • The wolvers are resistant to knock from guns, and have the ability to dodge gun-shots (excluding valiance/magnus shots)
   • Swords are made to be extremely effective against them
   -Proposed Solution:
   • Change/Add-to their inherant defense against bullets (their dodging abality), to be more focused towards swords
   • Specific to T4+

   Amazingly well put together wolver buff by Luguiru that would make the new stun-based WHB VERY MUCH worth having
   WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN IMPLEMENTED!?!?

Support that it's commonly agreed that the DVS/WHB are currently useless in comparison to other swords (so they need attention):
Links Comments of Relevancy

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/76782 : Original Post SAME AS MY BASE THOUGHT

Questions to OOO:
   Why put so much effort into making the aesthetic appeal of the WHB and not make it useful after releasing the flourish line?
   Were the Flourish lines intended to replace the cutter lines?
   Is there any intention on rebalancing the cutter lines?

Inspiration toward buffs/nerfs in general:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

My views/notes:

   The overall play-style of the cutters is what many enjoy. It keeps things interesting by moving you extremely quickly, and somewhat "dance" through your enemies. Hense, I don't believe replacing them is the    answer (as flourish lines have sort of done through speed/piercing abilities). Cutters deal normal damage, which is good in PvE (not accounting for it's actual low Damage Per Second/DPS), as you don't do less damage to any 1 monster type. On the other hand, in LD, this normal damage is almost negated by all defense equips. Generally speaking,the way to make up for weapons like these is with status infliction, and specifically to the cutter lines, along with a slight damage buff.

   Although piercing swords do destroy beasts through damage, they don't necessarily provide tactical decisions (tactical as far as SK goes). So I'll say that I don't believe making the Wild Hunting Blade (WHB) a pure    piercing weapon. Instead, it would be interesting if it would have a status that was anti-beast. I do not want to suggest an elemental damage, as then it may quickly make the cutter lines OP, and the WHB less of a beast-focused weapon.

Examples:

-Fire, Shock, Curse: If it's made to cause any of these relatively often, then people will spam, and any monster weak to these elements will be obliterated. In LD this could easily be spammed for it's ability (due to many quick slashes, give many chances to cause it), and then the only way to make it okay would be to have some debuff quality to the sword (overall making it overly complex for what it was intended to be).

-Freeze, Sleep: After frozen or lullibied, the combo would have to be stopped. In both scenarios, contining the combo wouldn't take advantage of the situation. If frozen in PvE waiting until the freeze breaks brings on completed damage, but at the cost DPS which is against what a buff would be asking for (in this case at least). In LD, freezing someone only gives a chance to deal an extreme amount of damage with a heavy weapon. Sleep, would bring forth the same situation as LD for Freeze (minus the extra damage), to take advantage of the situation, it would be best to switch to a heavy weapon and deal out a large chunk of damage. Some would even argue at this point, why not just use the heavy weapon (as generally PvE allows this without too many issues) to dish out HUGE DPS. In LD, it would make even more sense to use a larger sword as striker's boost allows quicker movement to somewhat compensate (although not totally fixing the slowness).

-Poison, Stun: Poison is for the DVS. Stun... well why not? At this point stun seems like the most well qualified for the job. It's not a huge damage output itself, it is (according to bells in GWW) anti-beast, and it could actually fix the lack of use the WHB has in LD.

So, Stun does seem the most appropriate to me, both for the fact that we don't want spam-brandishes, or worthless cryotech-like swords
(breaks it's own freeze).

I HAD ORIGINALLY WRITTEN A PARAGRAPH ON BEASTS, BUT ACCIDENTALLY COPIED OVER MY CLIPBOARD AS I TRIED MOVING IT
Attempt #2 at said Beast Paragraph:

Some of you might ask, "Why the need for a beast weapon? They're easy enough to kill in any tier that you don't really need a specific weapon for them". I mentioned earlier in this post of another thread created by Luguiru of a buff that could be implemented to fix the beast family (to a certain degree at least). In general, I just feel they need attention and a slight buff in difficulty. I think that the Lone-Wolf Boost that was explained Luguiru's thread is pretty awesome. It was also specifically addressed that a lot of this buff would happen T4+ (I think in general just referring to late-T3). I agree that the buff in that thread would be a bit much in T1, but in the case of that the tracking they had before didn't seem to be TOO difficult. I think it added a necessary element to the game. Since the WHB is a late-game weapon (5*), it wouldn't really make sense to buff it for the sake of T1, but nonetheless I think introducing the beast family, as a worthy adversary early on in-game, would give people reason to pursue an anti-beast weapon. So an overall buff for this weapon, would be supported if beasts also recieved a buff. Maybe in T2 the Lone-Wolf Boost would implemented with 5% instead of 10% for T3. The chromalisks should at the least recieve better tracking skills, and I'm not sure, but did their abilities to take away vita-pods get taken away? If so, that may be a good idea to bring back as well (to amplify the danger of confrontation with them).

Now for suggestions on the charges, and attacks themselves. Most of my agreements, opinions, and ideas come from the "interesting reads" section.

• It seams pretty well known that first fix of this weapon is having ghost swings (including wolver bites) to become more accurate in hitting their targets. Missing targets happens all too often and thus dropping the already low damage of these weapons.

• General increase in the damage dealt by the weapon. I think that thelack of interruption by the 3rd swing (excluding heavy swords) asks for a higher damage output. In relation to late-T2, and T3 use, lacking interruption at that point leaves a person open to recieve damage from the monster they're attacking. Of course some monsters have different timings of attack and would finish their attack on the time of the average 3rd swing, so it would barely be stopped by swords that interrupt on timing of 3rd swings. Since one doesn't normally want to take damage, the average
10-swing combo of the cutter lines gets interrupted to block, or to move in an avoidance of damage- thus dropping the DPS much lower than that of an average sword with interruption. A boost in damage dealt per swing may make up to some degree of the true dps this sword has.

• Fix knockback so that it doesn't move enemies out of range for the following swing. It's been suggested to reduce the knockback on the first 4 swings of the combo, and increase the knockback on the 5th swing (pushing enemies somewhat safely away before they do damage to the player).

• Possibly add poison clouds to the Dread Venom Striker that are slightly smaller than, or equal to those of T2 Jade Greavers (See Wiki http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Jade_Greaver#Jade_Greaver).These clouds will follow the arc of the original ghost swing (allthe way behind the player).

           This is a MAYBE because poison clouds would GUARENTEE poison (POSSIBLY OP)
           Possible Solutions:
               - Only the the third swing releases the cloud
           NOTE: If poison is added to ALL swings, weapon will be OP as opposing enemy will constantly be unable to heal, and will have the debuffs of poison (http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Poison) so long as the player continuously attacks. Not to mention if interruption is added in to the equation, the combo will continue forever = broken weapon lol.

Also something needs to be done to the charge. I originally thought that maybe having just one slice (like a finisher assassin) move would be more accurate and useful, but damage wise it would end up doing enormous damage. Maybe if they keep the charge they have right now, make it so that you can change direction of each swing (similar to the last swing being redirected if you move your mouse). I'd like suggestions on these, as those that I've seen so far, don't follow nicely with current SK style.

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 05:47

Mrgrey

Changes for thread

Sorry for not knowing much about HTML and causing broken paragraphs.

Here I'll list what changes I need to make:

Redo with proper HTML
Add TL;DR
Specify what buffs are specific to what swords. EX: Interruption for WHB not DVS (excluding 5th hit)
Reorganize
Figure out charge that works, not so strong that it's worth using over the combo
Disclaimer for knowing OOO is busy with other stuff

Find appropriate title

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 01:17

Xenonguard

Why do people keep putting "Well thought out suggestions" in their title?

It's like waving a huge neon sign over your head saying, "CHECK IT OUT GUYS! I'M THE MOST HUMBLE GUY IN THE WORLD".

A suggestion being well thought out should be judged by viewers, even though in this case it was well thought out but you don't want to come across as a show-off.

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 02:46

Kimahsonite

Nice to see that you linked

Nice to see that you linked to my thread, and I agree that the entire cutter line deserves a buff, along with many other weapons which OOO seem to choose to neglect.

As a side note, you could work on re-organising the thread. And like Unstable-Ordinance said, you might want to remove the 'Well thought out suggestions' part of the title. :)

Hopefully, just hopefully, OOO might CONSIDER these ideas and implement them into the game.

Sun, 04/14/2013 - 08:28

Mrgrey

Reason why I put well thought out

It's not just one of those "Buff my weapon because I want it to be awesome" threads. I actually couldn't think of a title, and changed it like 3 times lol. Any suggestions?

Kima: Yeah, I want to reorganize it, but since I'm not good with HTML I'm sort of having difficulties doing so. I'm going to try and reorganize it if it gets more reads. I noticed that there are some amazing threads on balancing, and don't understand why OOO is waiting so long to implement them. Then again there are a lot more threads with non-thought out ideas (where people don't think of how OP it will be).

Unstable: Did you even read my post? I changed the title for now, but it's not going to stay that way if I can think of something better.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 22:03

Mrgrey

Feedback

I'd still like some feedback on my ideas if anyone is willing to read this, I don't have the time to keep editing the thread. Later this week though.

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 23:51

Thinslayer

I read it.

I'm still processing the awesomeness of your post.

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 01:50

Mrgrey

Umm...

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

If you're not, then:
Thanks for reading!!! Please give me your input on what you think!

If you are, then:
What didn't you like about it?

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 03:31

Severage

Love it.

~Sev

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 05:42

Xxpapaya

The papaya cracks up XD

"2: Comment 17 by Xxpapaya (Papaya)
• Assasins want to be able to kill targets quickly, and efficiently (living after process of a charge/ combo). Cutters are supposed to be assasin weapons, but they somewhat fail right now."

WAIT A SECOND, /pulls out a glass of water, drinks it, and spits it out. Did I actually post that? XD I don't remember doing so XD
Either way, I agree ^^ +1

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 05:50

#10

Mrgrey

Lol

@Sev Thanks! Any feedback, or suggestions?

@Papaya Haha, yeah I tried to sum up what you said. Plus I've been looking through some relatively old threads. Did you double check the link too?

PS: Where are you guys located (rhetorically asking)!? It's like 6am for me lol.

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 05:54

#11

Xxpapaya

The papaya giggles

@Mrgrey
Oh, fair enough XD I'm pretty sure I've commented on a thread talking about cutters............can't remember which one it was :/

P.S MY timezone is GMT+8000. So its currently 8:51pm :P

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 06:01

#12

Waffleconecake

+1 Got through most of it, in

+1 Got through most of it, in the end what I read is completely true and something I agree with. The only thing I could add is possibly making DVS do half normal and half shadow damage as we currently only have 1.5 (I count all brandishes as half due to the clones) shadow swords...

Tue, 04/16/2013 - 07:25

#13

Mrgrey

@Papaya Lol that's why I

@Papaya Lol that's why I included links.

@Waffle the issue I see with that is having to changing the root of what the cutter line is: a normal damage sword, for every scenario (damage type wise). Plus if we made it shadow, then it would lose its value against fiends wouldn't it? I've thought about making the cutters half'n'half damages, and in almost all scenarios it's a bad idea unless we do another DA/GF set (as there are only 2 branches). If that leads you to suggesting there should be more branches, then the argument only goes back to my belief that OOO needs to balance weapons before adding more. Not to mention the flourish line has branches that need attention (Flamberge, and Rigadoon), with a huge list behind that (See Lugitus Balancing, branching, etc... Thread).

I guess in general I'd need to hear more of a reason to add another line besides "we need more shadow swords".

I'd hate to see the cutters get updated, only to be further placed into the "only good against jellies" pile (like how DVS is somewhat now.

Wed, 04/17/2013 - 12:47

#14

Mrgrey

24 hours have passed

bump

Wed, 04/17/2013 - 17:45

#15

Pawsmack

@OP/Mrgrey +1

Sounds great! My favorite weapon has always been the Wild Hunting Blade, but I've been to afraid to get it because I've heard so many bad things about it and the rest of the Cutter line. ._.

Wed, 04/17/2013 - 18:56

#16

Mrgrey

Yeah I think a lot of people feel that way.

Pawsmack, have you used the 4* versions?

Wed, 04/17/2013 - 19:23

#17

Waywardo

I wouldn't mind if there was

I wouldn't mind if there was more Cutter-type swords. Fang of Vog doesn't count since it behaves like a Calibur-type.

Wed, 04/17/2013 - 20:50

#18

Mrgrey

Hmmm...

Waywardo,

What sort of cutter lines/branches do you think would make the cutters worthwhile, and do you think that they need a buff to the other lines before hands?
Do you agree/disagree with my points?

Thu, 04/18/2013 - 17:38

#19

Waywardo

I think Cutters are

I think Cutters are worthwhile: They are excellent against Gremlins, I wish my Vile Striker had an UV vs Gremlins so I can tear it up. A shadow type variant would be crazy.
Vile Striker and Cruel Vile Striker are also pretty good against the Royal Jellies.

Thu, 04/18/2013 - 18:46

#20

Terra-Necro

I kind of agree with Klipik

I kind of agree with Klipik on this. It's not the fact that they are underpowered. It's the fact that the sword itself requires a strategy to use properly.

Thu, 04/18/2013 - 20:16

#21

Mrgrey

@Waywardo For fighting

@Waywardo For fighting Jellies, you're better off using the nightblade line though. It has less risk factor, and really the DVS/VS don't poison often enough. In what way are they good for gremlins that flourishes don't exceed?

@Terra Have you used them in T3? Good strategy, and skills do help and allow them to be usable, but not really a worthwhile investment. However they don't compare to the other 5* weapons because for every reason there is to use them (besides fun level), there's basically a better reason to use a different weapon.

Has little use in T3, Charges leave you exposed/take too long to finish, and contrary to what's said the wolver bites don't give more range (pretty sure):
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Swordmaster_Guide#Fast_Swords

Only 2 Swords with no reasons to have:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Jdavis/Swords#Summary_of_Swords

Even if DVS is kept same, WHB still needs attention:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Jdavis/Swords#Dread_Venom_Striker_vs....

Can you explain to me how strategy compensates for these issues:
- Ghost strikes missing targets
- Low damage output
- Pushing away enemies from follow up strikes
- Being hit before finishing a combo on 1 enemy for a majority of enemies (besides lumbar, some turrets, maybe phantoms)

Honestly, damage output doesn't need a huge boost. I mainly ask for reasons to fully build these lines. As of now, DVS is SORT OF worth making, but is out classed by the archeon (via damage) which can get the kill on the JK faster (from what I can tell seeing party-mates using them) than a DVS can even with poison stopping the healing process (only so often). WHB is kind of a joke. It's not as good as flourishes vs beasts, it's slower than DVS (which deals equal base damage + poison sometimes), a slight upgrade in D.O. would be nice, but I suggest stun because then you can flinch enemies with the 5th hit anyways allowing for another combo (not to mention the theme including stun is anti-beast via GWW).

Overall yes, the cutters are playable, but they're not a worthwhile investment unless you LOVE the play style/aesthetic appeal (WHB).

Fri, 04/19/2013 - 05:05

#22

Thunder-The-Bright

oh well.

I use WHB for vana's mask. normal damage is da best. for the rest, I used to dodge devilites attack with the dash, interrupting wolvers, corner an enemy. the forward steps, if you use them well, are pretty useful.

Fri, 04/19/2013 - 10:08

#23

Mrgrey

I do use those methods

As I said, cutters are playable but there are a ton of weapons that are better investments. Which is why cutters aren't a worthwhile creation right now. Really at this point the WHB has no real "niche" where it suits the situation best. Even for vana's mask, if you use the DVS it's faster, and more likely to let you move away from the mask after the combo without getting hit.

Fri, 04/19/2013 - 11:12

#24

Spookington

+ 1000

I still use my DVS in T3 lockdown. Rarely ever getting above 10k, no matter how I weave, dodge, or even how often I slash. I love the sword, but whatever I do with it can easily be exceeded with a BTB or a hammer.

I think the issue is invinciframes. I had a suggestion thread posted a while ago about how cutters and all other fast weapons could be easily buffed while keeping them low-damage via allowing them to get in as many hits as intended.

TBH though, at this point ANY kind of buff or rebalance would be welcome.

Fri, 04/19/2013 - 22:22

#25

Mrgrey

Hmm... I'd like to see that

@Spookington I'd love to add you in game and see you play LD and get over 2k. I never get over 2k :'(.

I don't know if invinciframes are the issue. I think that since it doesn't interrupt we're sort of screwed. When I get hit, invinciframes don't do jack squat for me, so I can only assume they're not making a difference for others. My issue is getting interrupted when I get hit, and that cause me to be still long enough for a second hit (that kills me). Could you possibly link me to that thread?

Lol yeah, any buff would be welcome, but I want them to have less work to do. That way they have less reason to say "it's going to take a long time". For now, I have these suggestions. They don't make the weapons OP (in theory), and I don't feel they'll require immense coding.

Would it be possible for you to give me feedback on specific buffs I discuss?

Sat, 04/20/2013 - 21:23

#26

Spookington

Yep, here you go.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/76194

It was a while ago, so I don't think anyone's interested in bringing it up again.

Invinciframes have apparently little to do with the hitstun/hitlock effect you get when hit. IF's determine how many times a weapon can hit between moments of invincibility. If they took down IFs, they would also have to take out hitstun - making the issue much more complex.

Eh, if you were looking to a fast and easy way to code for better weapons, then I guess on second thought my ideas should be discarded.

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 16:42

#27

Mrgrey

Thanks

For anyone else who reads through this thread, I saw Spookington in an LD match with me, and he made pretty good points using it mixed with other gear.

@Spookington I read through your IF post, and it doesn't seem to have too much application to this as there seems to be a 50/50 like and dislike for the suggestion to remove IF. Not to mention that the locking that could occur from other stuff would really be as much as a pain as it is now to use a cutter. Or at least I think.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 23:03

#28

Mrgrey

Bump

Wed, 04/24/2013 - 19:14

#29

Nineball-Seraph

Just nomming my cookies..

Never thought I'd see myself being quoted, like... Ever.

Wed, 04/24/2013 - 19:50

#30

Mrgrey

Haha

@Ninebal-Seraph Seems like a common thing amongst people. This is a topic that pops up every now and again, and I'm sick of people who don't search for old threads, or don't even refer to them for others to take valuable info from them. I tried very hard to research what others had suggested, and what you said definitely applied!

Do you have any opinions on my actual suggestion?

I feel that the cutters are sort of the most useless sword investment in the game at this point, and that's why I went to such trouble of referencing other threads/posts. I think since they're not very good, many avoid using it and so are unaware of the issues it has.

Also, did you just search your name for previous posts and happen to find this thread?

Thu, 04/25/2013 - 02:02

#31

Aiden-Curry-Puff

+1 for an incredibly well researched, cited, post that also happens to be completely readable, calm and logical. Haha adjective spam...

But yeah, good job! Here's to the day our WHBs get buffed.

Thu, 04/25/2013 - 02:06

#32

Mrgrey

Wonderful Response

@Aiden Thanks for enjoying the post! I still need to get around to re-organizing it but I tried very hard to make it all of what you explained! Glad the message gets across properly.

Thanks to the most recent survey OOO is taking, I'm quite excited to see if the WHB gets updated.

Thu, 04/25/2013 - 16:55

#33

Nineball-Seraph

Just a check:

Cutters are "the most useless sword investment in the game".

You taken half a look at the Spur line?

Look at it this way:
Cutter+MAX CTR/ASI/DMG is usable in t3.
Spur+MAX CTR/ASI/DMG is still broken.

I always use my WHB with maxed out stats, so I can't really comment on how to fix it. I don't think statuses or reworking of the charge is necessary, but the regular combo needs improvements, and the sword could use higher DPS overall.

Thu, 04/25/2013 - 19:24

#34

Mrgrey

Spur Lines

The reason I didn't focus on those being useless is because at this point I feel any weapon that goes up to 4* is unfinished work that cannot be spoken for. I firmly believe they need to finish those lines (and have 5* versions). However I feel balancing of current weapons should happen before new gear.

I'd like to think that the Spur is usable, but just not nearly as effective as other weapons. Specifically because it's 4*. However, I'm looking at the chart: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Winmillion#Damage and damage from combo here seems equal to the WHB ( http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Wild_Hunting_Blade#Damage )

WHB:
On stratum 4 Total Damage (with it's greater # hits) is 229. Unless it's a beast, and you don't have max damage

Win:
Also stratum 4 is 230 (with greater # hits)

1 point difference at base. This obviously doesn't take into the account whether win can interrupt during combo, but generally in T3 you don't finish your whole combo with WHB anyways. Unless you're okay with being hit. I can only say from what I've seen, winmillion is safer than WHB. In general, I think the Win finishes the combo faster than the cutters, and effectively deal out total damage faster as well.

I don't have too much experience with the Spur line, but I'd say it's right there with the Cutter line in need for a buff.

By implementing the statuses I believe that it would be brought up to par (in usefulness) with other 5* lines, as I mentioned the status that the WHB would get wouldn't be a direct output for damage, so it can't be considered over powered either.

I also brought up changes to the combo that would make it more accurate in dealing damage, and actual hitting with all attacks. Do you see those to fit into what you think would help the combo? Or do you see another method?

As for the charge, I only see it needing changes because it leaves the player extremely vulnerable. Against 1 enemy, yes it's fine (for WHB) but when near a mob, not forgiving whatsoever.

Thu, 04/25/2013 - 22:05

#35

Atacii

...

Chance of short-lived poison cloud on swing is a nifty idea. Goes with the visuals of DVS as well.

Family specific damage is bad, especially on a weapon, and super especially on a sword meant for beasts( Skolver, anyone?). Stun is an OK alternative, although I think a chance of interrupt on swing is better.

Cutters are fun to use because it feels like you are dancing forward slashing wildly. The mechanics of the weapon should reinforce/reward this behavior, which is why I think the damage should step up after every couple of swings. So there would be three tiers of damage instead of two.

The charge attack is bad. Not just ineffective and dangerous, but boring. I think the charge attack should be an initial lunge( pounce) then a short but savage volley of strikes. Much more assassin-like than standing in place, swinging at the air like a fool for five seconds.

KB obviously needs some adjusting. Hitboxes also feel off, but correcting KB might just fix the problem.

* * *

I agree about the Spur. Any equip that doesn't have a 5* form isn't a real equip.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 03:05

#36

Mrgrey

Yay more posts! Also, may have to add this to the first post

Keep the posts coming!

EDIT 1: I realized a lot of this post was mislead. I thought "low" referred to another hit entirely, not the ghost swing. I'll go back and edit this/ make a new post accordingly.
EDITED

@Atacii Glad you liked Tsu's idea! I felt that it fit really well also, and that with a bit of tweaking would keep the DVS from being OP.

I'd like for there to be the status of stun, and interrupt on the third swing. After a ton of use with my WHB lately, I've noticed that going for the third swing is dangerous, where going for only 2 swings is very safe. These are both with a shield bump/cancel at the end. Adding in interrupt at the third swing would help the WHB become more useful in T3, as being able to interrupt is very important vs 1 enemy (at least).

The issue with only adding interrupt would be that the WHB would be left without a real use/niche. It would be a normal damage sword, with low DPS (low in a realistic/ T3 situation which includes 2/3-hit then run).

I agree that its play-style should be rewarded (EDIT: Deleted lack of balance thought).

(EDIT: Deleted misinterpreted damage/ upgrade idea)

SIDE NOTE:
The Suda may not fit into the average 600-700 damage range, but it has push back on normal swings, wide area of damage, can cause stun to allow better use of it's swings, and makes up for low damage on normal swings by doing ~800 damage with charge.
I BELIEVE:
IT SHOULD CAUSE STUN ON FIRST HIT/BE UPGRADED TO STUN MORE! For such impeccably low damage on a heavy sword, it should be made more useful with just normal swings. Most people as of now say it's only really a decent sword with a CTR Med (or so I've heard/observed).
Could use some backup from someone who uses the weapon (like Hexzyle xD).

Lastly, does KB mean killing blow?

Fri, 04/26/2013 - 09:12

#37

Atacii

...

Just to clarify, on adding interrupt to WHB, I was not suggesting adding it to a specific strike in either its normal attack combo or its charge attack combo, but giving every strike a chance to interrupt. So it would proc just like status effects on weapons; i.e. Furious Flamberge : Fair chance of causing moderate Fire :: WHB : Good chance of causing Interrupt.

I suggest this as there are already a couple swords with stun procs, and that getting bit by the little wolvers accompanying the sword strikes would be more likely to interrupt than stun in terms of what-makes-sense-to-me.

Although to be honest, I am somewhat biased on the issue as I find poison and stun to be very weak statuses, especially on weapons. In my opinion they should either be allowed to stack or should proc as an AOE effect, as in the poison cloud idea.

* * *
I didn't quite follow your argument for "I agree that its play-style should be rewarded, however I'm not sure if it would be balanced."

Just to make my suggestion perfectly clear, allow me to demonstrate it.

[strike in normal combo]: [primary strike damage]/[ghost strike damage]
1: 100/40
2: 100/40
3: 150/60
4: 150/60
5: 200/80

Numbers obviously chosen with no regard for balance. The purpose of the change would be to reward the player for using more than the first one or two strikes in the combo, as there is seldom reason to do so now and a cutter is not very cutter-y until you use more of the combo.

I don't see why this would make balancing difficult. While you may have to make an exception to the typical progression from 'Low' to 'High' damage( we are, after all, introducing a new damage category), otherwise you just have to pick a "fair" target DPS then set the damage of each strike accordingly.

* * *
Ah, sorry, I use KB to mean knockback. So my previous comment would be: "Knockback obviously needs some adjusting. Hitboxes also feel off, but correcting knockback might just fix the problem."

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 05:04

#38

Mrgrey

Temporary Response

This is temporary because I'm still thinking of a solid number for the combo/each hit. This is being tough more so because I don't understand how the Lancer Knightz Chart is set up, and how the damage on the normal wiki page is set up either.

At this point I'm debating on a few things in my mind. Here's one example where I take the ghost swings and boost their damage. I did the math earlier, and the final damage output seemed comparable to other swords, I'll be double checking it soon/ cross referencing to other weapons later.

Another thing to note is that I don't feel that the ghost swings should be buffed for the DVS but instead, the main swings. As the ghost swings don't appear stronger than the weapon itself (unlike phantom wolvers).

Note: I'm taking it based off the damage

PERCENTAGE

from the first "high" swing. Otherwise known as the hit from the sword, not the ghost swing, or last swing in the regular combo (View WHB Damage Chart).

My original suggestion:
make damages higher overall, with no gradual increase.

Current in percentages of damage:
100/60
100/60
100/60
100/60
127/60

Final Output Version 1:
527/300

Suggestion:
100/80
100/80
100/80
100/80
127/80

Final Output:
527/400

In this next suggestion, it's proposed we gradually increase damage. Giving the player incentive to finish the entire combo- and use the playstyle as intended (moving and using the whole combo).

Suggestion Version 2:

100/60
100/70
100/80
100/90
100/100

Final Output:
527/400

You may notice this: The newly suggested percentage of damage is equal in both versions... now you're wondering the difference.

The difference here are these situations:

Version 1: You're dealing out decent damage now on all hits, so you can stop the combo any moment, and feel fairly satisfied with the damage you've done before being forced to stop (to save health), and wonder overall why you would even finish the combo.

Version 2: What if you have to block after your second swing? Then you get low percentage damages, and the buff isn't helping! So the buff makes players still not make good DPS. This makes you wonder you're even attacking with the first swings if they're not helpful, so you leave it for another weapon.

There are issues to both versions, but I still like the idea of a well balanced hits throughout the whole thing- giving the WHB/DVS base damages which hold up decently even if you stop a bit earlier in the combo. However, what's been brought up above is important: incentive to use the combo in order to move, and generally make that a strong suit of its mechanic.

Final Verdict:
With balanced interruption ability, FIXED HITBOXES FOR BOTH MAIN/WOLVER SWINGS this could work well. Also, including stun wouldn't hurt because it is in fact a WEAK status right now. It's a support status to make the WHB a better weapon through without another weapon being a crutch.

Things to continue discussing:
Often interrupt as a specfic prec can make it OP, and then WHB won't support other weapons- thus furthering it away from a niche.
Ex: Even on interrupt, you won't have enough time to switch weapons and play out another attack. With stun, it could last long enough for said situation. Which- given the same circumstances, would give time to switch/deal damage.

So I still think that interrupt on third or fourth swing is important. Then add stun. Fix hitboxes, and new damage percentages (after finalizing them with numbers).

Anyone who has read to this point... You're awesome!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 05:28

#39

Thunder-The-Bright

no, I'm not awesome. I read a part of luguiru's topic.

well, the damage buff + stun seems ok. the problem is how to fix the ghost swing. you know, waititng is not a good way.
we could increase the range of the swing, but that could lead to OP-ness. having more range and interrupt/stun is a good way to not get hit at any time.
how about replacing the ghost swing with a ghost stab? that would take care of the range and would require to have more precision if you want the maximum damage output.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:07

#40

Atacii

...

Hmm, while I agree with your reasoning for making the ghost strike on WHB relatively more powerful than that of DVS, I think the base mechanics of the two weapons should remain the same.

Random nitpick: 1 = 100/100 = 100%. The '%' is meaningful.

* * *
Another idea that might address several issues raised. Instead of increasing the damage of the weapon throughout the combo, increase its range. So the hitbox would gradually expand about the player as he/she proceeds through the combo.

Not much of a stretch either as the weapon already appears to affect much more area than it actually does with the wide sweeping strikes of both the primary and ghost blade. This would provide reason to use more of the combo, wouldn't break the traditional higher damage only on final strike, and would make the ghost swing more dependable, at least later on in the combo.

* * *
While I don't know how effective/over-powered Interrupt as a proc would be, I do know that an Interrupt provides enough time to switch to another weapon and attack. You have to be quick about it, but it is a common skill for clones in LD and gunners everywhere.

Didn't say anything before, but I do like your idea of having interrupt on 3rd strike in addition to the final one. Makes the weapon much more usable.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:13

#41

Mrgrey

I've read his topic too :P

@Thunder
Dang Thunder, read that thread and this one? Ton of reading = double-awesome. I said that because a lot of people don't care much for the cutter lines, so to read the mini-walls of text I've made is cool. Lug has a ton of text and all but it's small in sections sorta.

Now for your suggestions:

1. In the original post I linked back to a post talking about a change in the knockback to fix missing hits.
2. I think the range should be equal to that of the brandish, and the calibur. In general I feel a sword's hit box should just be the length of its actual polygonal existence... err the length of what what we see physically... the length of the sword. Fixing the distance wouldn't make it OP because the DPS still would be sort of low (since you still have to stop mid-combo and block for most monsters).
3(ish). Generally it seems most swords have interrupt at some point of their combo. I've noticed it most in their second hit, out of 3. My suggestion as far as interruption goes, is to only have interrupt on the third, and final swings (and only chance, not guarantee). The swords I see interrupt, don't always interrupt, and so it's only fair to have the same for this. I don't think this sword should be focused on interrupt. If it did, what would make it an anti-beast sword? Stun fits in better thematically with the weapon, and still gives some of the attributes that having an ability of interrupt would. That is because interrupt gives the user another chance to attack without any danger, and stun actually has danger depending on the monster- overall achieving balance.
4. I don't think they should be stabs, as the cutters cut, not stab (that's rapier/flourish territory). A stab is precise, which is what you should be doing with a rapier, a swing is what you do with a scimitar/machete/khukri like weapon (the cutter).

Plus, the cutter lines already require enough precision because of how much movement they have. In late T2, and T3 traps are notorious for killing cutter users who aren't precise with their swings.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:25

#42

Thunder-The-Bright

point taken.

if with range you mean the fact that the cutter series hits with a 45-50° angle (from one side to another), I really don't get why is that too. lower damage and range instead of speed. ???
yes, with the exeption of heavy swords, practically all swords have a high chance of interrupting on the last swing and some of the medium ones have on 2nd too. giving interruption to more than one swing: I like that.
ok for the stabs.
I usually don't use WHB near traps of any sort. that is why I didn't get that problem.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:35

#43

Mrgrey

@Atacii First off, thanks for

@Atacii First off, thanks for continuing conversation after your first post! I appreciate it when people come back to a topic after initiating a conversation.

1. I can see why you'd think that. I only said this because the WHB is currently loved for its phantasmal wolvers, and I feel there should be more than aesthetic appeal to love them. Also, I didn't say damages would be different completely, so the overall damage of the swords would be the EXACT same (excluding poisoned enemies). Difference being that the DVS would deal out more damage from its main swing. Which actually makes a bit more sense; technically the assassin weapon of the two is the DVS, and if it dealt out more damage by its main swing, then it would get some kills faster (obviously depending on the HP of the receiving monster/player). This in a sense would mean it was getting the kill "fast", and then you could leave... LIKE AN ASSASSIN!

2. Umm... yeah I guess I'll change that, but I did write just before I mentioned all that (in bold) that:
Note: I'm taking it based off the damage

PERCENTAGE

from the first "high" swing. Otherwise known as the hit from the sword, not the ghost swing, or last swing in the regular combo (View WHB Damage Chart).

3. Well, I mentioned in my @Thunder post that range should be increased to the physical length of the sword (as with every sword). No more, no less. I don't think making the hit-box for the main swing to be larger, or small than the sword at any time. Unless you want to increase the range of the wolver bites? That would need readjusting (almost even completely new making) of knockback and hit-boxes... seems a bit much vs just making the cutters hit the length of their swords/fix knockback. Are you asking to change the combo?

4. From my @Thunder post, I answer in #3.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:07

#44

Mrgrey

Huh?

"if with range you mean the fact that the cutter series hits with a 45-50° angle (from one side to another), I really don't get why is that too. lower damage and range instead of speed. ???" -Thunder

That section of your post left me confused. I'll try my best to address, but could you rephrase/explain what you meant?

1. By range I mean the distance from the sword to where it will actually do damage. For example:

-GF: Tends to deal damage further from tip of the sword(most apparent in LD). So, hit box feels broken to me, and sword range is greater than length of the sword.

-Cutter lines: Feels as if you're close enough to hit with the tip, you won't (at all). However, if you're hitting with the middle of the blade, then you'll do damage; so the hit box is in the middle of the sword, and at the hilt. Also means to use the cutter lines you must be face to face with enemy (meaning less range than the swords physical length). This gives a broken hit box feeling.

-Flourish: These don't feel as broken as GF, but they do seem to hit further away from their tips just slightly. Semi-broken hit box feeling.

-Brandish and Calibur: Hit pretty accurately. Hit at the very tip, but not further. Not broken hit box feeling.

2. By hitting at smaller angles, it allows the amount of time consumed by one swing to be shorter, effectively speeding up the process for next swing. So yes, the "45°-50°" (not sure if those are the actual angles) or small angles do make it faster. Plus, the cutter has 1 wide swing that's about 160° (second swing), and the first swing is about 140°. Unless you meant 45° vertically, and not horizontally, in which case I'd say that's because it's the natural way to swing (people don't swing machetes horizontally, you swing them diagonally 45° to cut brush, more or less similar to scimitars and same with khukris). The only way that making it swing horizontally would make more sense is if it was based off of a Doa- otherwise known as a Chinese Broadsword.

Side Note:The only thing making it slower is the fancy turning the of the character as they slash, which is there to give it the SK feel/style of SK attack patterns. So those spinning turns shouldn't be taken out (otherwise it wouldn't be an SK themed attack).

3. Yeah, and second swings are a safe time to interrupt because it's before the attack animation starts for most enemies. The downsides to most swords that do this, is that they enemies who are resistant to damage. For balancing purposes, making the cutter only interrupt on the third strike makes it dangerous to some degree, but still at a reasonable moment.

4. Try using it around mobs in areas with spikes, you'll see what I mean.

P.S. Thanks to you and anyone else who returns to this thread :)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 23:10

#45

Atacii

...

My idea concerning increasing range throughout the combo was for the first swing to have the same ridiculously small hitbox used currently, but for it to grow with each consecutive swing in the combo. So the hitbox of the second swing would be larger than the first, the third larger than the second, and so on.

Granted it wouldn't be very realistic, but as you have pointed out, it is not unusual for swords in SK to defy physics, and I think the mechanic might be fun to play with.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 02:54

#46

Thunder-The-Bright

oops.

ok, wrong data.
the swing of the cutter line has an hitbox that cuts an angle of 100-110°. calibur and bandish have 120-130°. DA and GF have 180°.
I would give the cutter line an angle similar to calibur, but a little smaller (-5°). it's not a great improvement, but it would increase it's usablility in very large mob groups. don't tell me that it's a weapon for killing a single mob. I have to lock on a trojan to kill him, otherwise I hit the shield.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:17

#47

Mrgrey

D-D-D-Double Response

@Atacii
I'll agree it sounds like fun. I don't think having the hit box extend beyond the polys of the sword is a good idea though. For starters, I hate being in LD and being hit from a distance that appeared to be far enough to dodge. Allowing the cutters (or any other weapon) to do that would be saying it's okay for others to do it too. Secondly, I'm pretty sure this would require implementing a brand new set of coding, and I'm just aiming for the buff to rewrite what's existent. There are a ton of items in need of balancing, and I would rather them fix what they have, than implement new content. Maybe they can release another cutter line later on that does that, or even a different weapon- who knows maybe a whip?

@Thunder
You suggest that they redo the animation/hit box? Also, I don't know what you mean by a "single mob". Is there a specific number of enemies that makes a mob or something? I do like the idea of increasing its hit box, only if the cutters physically appear to reach though. I didn't intend for them to change the horizontal distance of its hit box, but more so the length. I'll draw an example of what I mean, and add it later.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 10:14

#48

Atacii

...

Mob is another word for enemy or monster in MMO-speak.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:18

#49

Mrgrey

I thought otherwise...

I was pretty sure a mob referred to a group of beings, in this case monsters. Like when a mob chases Frankenstein. Definition of Mob

Also, can you address the rest of the post?

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 12:24

#50

Thunder-The-Bright

ok, you answered.

I would make hit hitbox larger horizontally. you said you wouldn't. that stops our conversation.

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