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Balancing, Branching, et cetera

399 replies [Last post]
Tue, 10/09/2012 - 21:03
#251
Qwez's picture
Qwez
Interesting... yet...

However, where is the incentive? Krogmo has incentive, Clockworks has its smaller incentive, Missions have their incentives, this -mini-game- gives in-game cosmetics...
Not only that, but there seems to be no devised system of crowns return, which is implemented in other games (I assume this will be quickly rebutted).

What do the losers get from participation? What do the winners win that applies to outside of the mini-game?
What happens when there is a draw?
How does one attack when a team just sits around a corner and goes cluckster crazy high on haze? Are there going to be throwable respawning pots?
How is can the opposing team comeback if one of their players feeds the enemy team? Will that player get punished?
How will the losing team have the ability to comeback? Will there be mercy upgrade tokens to the loser? Will every five deaths give an upgrade token or something?
How is 50% movement speed going to get balanced? How will letting people crawl faster than a shocked quicksilver be balanced? Are there going to be poison and stun traps to make this easier?
How will this mini-game fit into Haven? Where is it going to be?

Perhaps make the incentive new bomber equipment/shields/etc.
If not, then it should have no in-game cosmetics that makes a whole bunch of problems for SK: new tokens, new token machine, another arcade spot filled (or some other place), new sponsor of the game, some back-story, and so forth.

If there is going to be a new pvp mini-game, it should follow the existing system as to not complicate the system.

EDIT: cool I stole 6th page

Tue, 10/09/2012 - 21:49
#252
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
That new page

The whole Vaporizer sausagefest was made more in mind with casual players who have nothing important to do and want something cheap and entertaining to satisfy their boredom, which is why there are no crown returns. There are no non-cosmetic rewards for it yet to make it less of a weapon grab and more of an afterschool special kind of deal; just something to do for your own amusement. If I were to add actual rewards it would involve some of the other stuff in this thread as listed in the index.

Winners get two tokens per win (applies to all team members, rounds may not be joined while in progress and leaving will not grant any tokens) and losers only get one. The main reason there are no other rewards for this yet aside from being preoccupied with other shenanigans is to make a minigame for the sake of a minigame instead of an alternative playstyle for people to obsess over. Out of energy but still want to derp around? Grab some mist bombs and herp up some people.

Draws go into sudden death where everyone gets a 2* Blast. I suddenly realized I forgot to mention everyone has three bars of health and absolutely no normal damage even with upgrades. Sudden death has no time limit and ends when all members of either team are defeated and/or leave.

Hard to say. Maybe a limit on how many friendly clouds can overlap before forcing each other to dissipate of three, attempting which completely dissipates the excessive overlapping clouds. Then again, what stops people from spawn camping in Lockdown with Vaporizers, Pulsars, and Flourish spamming?

Do people do that in Blast Network? Other than me.

I want to say yes, but at the same time more wants to say no; not because I have anything against underdogs, but since everyone starts with the same loadout aside from whatever status their bomb inflicts it would come down to skill over preexisting qualities. If dying all the time were rewarded the game would be broken by people just running in and spamming until they die then get rewarded for it. The idea is to force you to work with your team or suffer trying to go solo, preferably by grouping certain statuses together (fire + poison, shock + stun, etc.) for effect combinations rather than relying on spamming damage everywhere.

Does it really say 50%? That should be 20%. Derp, shows how well I pay attention.

The map is just the map; no traps or anything. All damage and statuses come from players. The lack of shields means no shield bumping people into mist clouds though that would be clever.

I still question why the Strangers let Krogmo in town. Maybe there could be a second minigame system, Stranger Stadium or something, where derp minigames like mine can be dumped in. Krogmo minigames tend to be more competitive while this relies more on planning ahead with what you invest your kill points in rather than just derping around and stuffing upgrades in your nostrils. Snort snort.

I want to, I hope to, and I plan to. There is a bomber shield linked in the index in this thread and I plan to work on a bombing helmet or two, maybe even a torso to match.

A lot of people have accumulated a lot of Krogmo tokens. Bring in a minigame which comes with a new system of rewards, those people benefit in new content without even having to play the new content; even if it is just silly cosmetics only usable for the minigame, but if new equipment were involved it would be awful. If a new minigame comes in as part of Krogmo, keep it to the Krogmo reward system.

Going to add player health, upgrades to health, and especially movement speed not going up to +50% no matter how blind I am. My eyes have been pretty dry today. Also changing the minigame upgrade system so the two kill upgrades are moved up to three and three kill upgrades move up to five.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 08:27
#253
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Grenadier caps [Branching]

Been a while since one of these showed up, especially since it falls under the second category of the thread title meaning it should happen more often than the third. Never mind. Onto the show.

Today we have something either relatively simple or unnecessarily complicated, which is why there will be two options for both this and the other planned bomber helmet because both will have similar effects.

The first and preferred set of effects are as follows along with basic model references:

4*, Grenadier Cap

  • +1 bomb damage
  • 5.8 bars normal defense (a little less than HDemo)
  • 5 bars element defense
  • 1 bar freeze resistance
  • 1 bar fire resistance

5*, Bomber Pride

  • +1 bomb charge time reduction
  • +1 bomb damage
  • +1 bomb damage for Blast, Spine Cone, and shard bomb lines (Nitronome, IrontechD, Big Angry, HDecon, Barrage, Deadly Shard, Deadly Crystal, Deadly Dark Matter, Deadly Splinter, Shocking Salt, and Scintillating Sun; all of those lines)
  • 6.2 bars normal defense (about the same as MadB)
  • 5.5 bars shadow defense (less than MadB)
  • 2.5 bars freeze resistance
  • 2.5 bars fire resistance

Status resistances are based on the item itself, not having two parts of a set.

The first and most obvious question would be where the liquids this thing comes from. It branches from the 3* SDemo line, Fused Demo; the helmet to be specific. No matching torso. You can either go Heavy Demo or Grenadier Cap, though HDemo can lead to three other branches while Grenadier leads to only one 5* option. Both the 4* and 5* of this line have less defense compared to the normal SDemo lines, even Mad Bomber, but has more status resistance and decent offensive bonuses; especially that second bomb damage bonus, but it only applies to offense bombs. Not Vaporizers or suction, just standard and shard mechanic ones; standard being Blast/Spine Cone and shard being those five shard bomb lines. In case that was not specific enough. The first +1 bomb damage applies to all bombs, the second only applies to the listed ones. In the end you only get +2 bomb damage and +1 bomb charge with all the offensive bonuses active, less defense against damage, and some more status resistance than other lines.

The second set of stats are pretty lame, but having a backup is pretty important in case that mechanic specific bonus is impossible. The 4* is the same but the 5* is different:

  • +1 bomb charge time reduction
  • +1 bomb damage
  • 6.2 bars element defense
  • 6.2 bars shadow defense
  • 2.5 bars fire resistance
  • 2.5 bars freeze resistance

Defenses are slightly higher, normal defense is traded in for shadow, loses the extra bomb damage for offensive bombs, and keeps the status resistances. It would be a decent shadow helmet for bombers to roll around with but lack the even amount of bomb charge people aim for to get that clean +6: +2 from two MadB/VDemo/trinket items with another +2 from the bomb being heated for the maximum effect.

I wonder where this idea came from.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 21:49
#254
Addisond's picture
Addisond

I'd be more interested in seeing why, rather than what, where or how.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 22:00
#255
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

Options.

Like Plague Needle, Vanquisher, HDecon, IrontechD, Bombastic, VSalamander, the normal damage shard bomb, Jelly, Chaos, MadB, Fallen, and Justifier.

Fri, 10/12/2012 - 22:23
#256
Addisond's picture
Addisond

Yes, but this is extremely similar to other bomb armors because it offers the same defense typing. We already have four types of elemental bomb armors. It's kind of a fusion between mad bomber and bombastic, getting you the same results as mixing, plus a slight bonus on damage-focused bombs.

The second option is a bit more unique but I'd still rather see a regular bonus armor in another typing.

If OOO is going to introduce new equipment and make new models, code, etc. for it, they should put some thought into it and put it somewhere where it's really needed. Even if they don't really need to make new models in this case.

Sat, 10/13/2012 - 08:24
#257
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

Well.

Liquids.

If this is such a big deal, it can have shadow defense instead of element.

Now have one of these.

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 10:14
#258
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Graviton [Rebalance]

Compare Graviton to Electron:

Graviton

  • Shadow damage
  • Obtained through normal recipes

Electron

  • Element damage
  • May inflict shock (not listed as an effect because it was "removed")
  • Obtained through Krogmo token exchanges

Not to mention element damage has a strict advantage when it comes to upper difficulty areas where nearly everything is weak or neutral to it, while often being resistant to shadow. Electron also has the advantage of shock in a bomb mechanic which has a huge advantage from being able to inflict a status. Should we just cut shock off Electron, since it already says there is no shock? Trick question, no bomb currently is overpowered; not even Nitronome. That means buffing Graviton. I have a couple pitches on buffing the purple bowling ball listed in order of preference:

  • Add freeze to Graviton line with a slightly lower rate than the rate of shock Electron has (some bombers say ElectronV has a ~4/2 (good chance of minor, GravitonV would have a 4/1 or 3/2 rate of freeze)
  • Though shock is more useful with the suction mechanic bombs (freeze can be cancelled by being attacked, shock interrupts the attacker while damaging while not having an option to cure it early), freeze is the second option for this kind of weapon. It pulls them together, does something to mess with their mobility, then someone comes along with a Troika/DAvenger/Calibur and shoves it up their bu-

  • Remove random knockback after the detonation
  • Being a longtime Graviton user myself, the only downside I ever face (other than using it against shadow resistant enemies, which was not as bad as this) is the random knockback that throws everything that was in its suction around the room. Imagine an open and active blender after throwing bananas in there. Now imagine tossing a lobster in there. Would you do that? While sober?

  • Increase movement speed while charging Graviton slightly (between its current speed and Vaporizers/Blasts; still notably slow, but not a crawl)
  • This is pretty game changing for those old suction bombers; the ones who still use the purple. One of the deeper faults for suction bombs is the incredibly slow mobility while charging, immensely limiting its use. If you could rather run slightly slower than normal to charge a Voltaic/Shivermist to interfere with enemy mobility on a larger radius or slow down for a few seconds to spin those suckers, what would be the obvious choice? While charging any bomb you are completely unable to shield unless you want to cancel the charge.

  • Increase suction duration by one second over Electron line
  • The suction already lasts fairly long (2~3 seconds), but it would be more balanced than extending the suction radius. This is more of a spitball than a solid buff but it beats nothing.

Wed, 10/17/2012 - 23:34
#259
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

You could add stun now that stun is AWESOME.

But we're not really short on bombs with stun.

Thu, 10/18/2012 - 09:20
#260
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

We should just keep it with Irontech, Big Angry, Scintillating, and Stagger for now.

And Proto if you want to count it.

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 21:43
#261
Mk-Vl's picture
Mk-Vl
Why isn't this stickied yet?

/\/\/\

Wed, 10/24/2012 - 22:15
#262
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

Because Poseidon is sleeping with the fishes tonight and Eury thinks I smell bad.

Probably because these are just suggestions and they want us to all feel equally useless even though we know they lurk this section and use stuff.

I had a few new ideas recently about to hatch from my noggin. Well, a couple are from other people who seem reluctant/afraid to do it themselves, so I will undoubtedly credit their original idea so they know I have other ways to hug people. Without losing limbs or internal organs. Most people need those.

And now for some of this.

Thu, 10/25/2012 - 14:45
#263
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Voltedge [Rebalance]

Oh boy gosh golly gee tiddly winks, something about Brandishes.

Just like with the Sealed line rebalances in this thread, this is just for the charge attack; no touching the basic attack, no changing damage types, or messing with its ability to inflict a status from only the charge. And a little damage nerf. Who said that?

The current charge attack after the initial swing creates a series of five explosions, each of which have a radius of one space, in a linear pattern. All Brandishes have this charge attack. Each one of those five explosions has a good chance to inflict strong (4/4, highest possible rate) shock. Here is a picture of the charge attack taken from the Wiki. It has significant range, area of effect, and damage all in one. Blah blah whining about Brandishes, moving on.

The first change is to push the 5* charge attack explosion size and amount back to its 4* values: instead of a whole one space radius per explosion, only about 0.8, and only four explosions instead of five. Keep your underpants on, you get something to compensate for it: a rebounding effect: when the initial swing hits something the first explosion automatically hits dead center on it (the explosion still does the current 5* damage but only has the 4* size), then rebounds to the closest enemy within 3 (or closer) spaces but loses 20% of its damage, then repeats the rebound (within 3 spaces, closest is hit) losing 20% damage with every rebound (first explosion does 100%, second does 80%, third does 60%, fourth does 40%; stops at this point).

What if the rebound just bounces between the same two enemies? Have a derp example:

O = you
X = open spaces
A, B, C, D, E = enemies

X X X X X X X X E
X X X X X X D X X
O A X X X C X X X
X X X B X X X X X
X X X X X X X X X

Again, this only works if the initial swing hits an enemy. If you swing and only hit air nothing will happen.

Okay, O, as weird as your name is you decided one day to take your Voltedge down to wherever the liquids the enemies are also letters and used the charge attack right on A. The initial swing hits A and the first explosion hits directly on them, taking the full 100% explosion damage (117 on D29 against a neutral target). Then a little behind him to the right, B was standing too close, so the rebounding effect goes from A to B for the second explosion (93.6, ~94 damage on D29 against a neutral target). Then C, who was a little too far from A to get the second explosion, was still too close to B and gets the third explosion (70.2, ~70 damage on D29 against a neutral target). The last explosion goes to D (46.8, ~47 damage on D29 against a neutral target). Nothing happens to E because all four explosions already popped, so you run up to them and cut their face off because you have a sword. The explosions happen where the enemy was when the rebound knew to attack them, meaning it can be dodged by things that can move quickly enough to fly away like Devilites and Wolvers.

One last thing about rebounding. The direction the charge attack is released, in this case eastward, the rebound will only travel within 160 degrees in the direction you were facing; just restrictive enough to stop it from going left or right when it should be going forward at least a little.

This potentially has a lot more range than Voltedge already has (from about ten spaces from initial swing to the fifth explosion in a strictly linear pattern to twelve spaces) but gives it a unique feature while punishing blind charge spamming by forcing the user to actually hit something for the charge effect to work.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 16:26
#264
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Sir Skeletos [New Content]

Copy-pasted from the original post in the original thread:

Before reading any further, open this and listen to it while reading.

His first and third phase would be charging and jousting at you like a Deadnaught/Slag Guard, but instead of the sword attacking directly in front it would be on his right side. His sword would deal pierce damage and possibly inflict poison. The middle would instead be where the head of the horse would have some armor, bashing and trampling you with shadow damage. On his right would be his shield which just bumps you away. You can damage them from the head of the horse, dealing damage to the horse (the horse will only take 80% damage if you attack its head instead of the unshielded back), or from behind like any Trojan-esque enemy. The rider has more health than the horse. Once the rider loses enough health (if the horse is defeated the rider goes into Deadnaught/Slag Guard mode; the horse comes back later) he moves onto the second phase. During the first and third phase both the rider and horse are resistant to shadow damage and weak to element damage.

His second and fourth phase needs the horse again. If the horse was killed in the first/third phase the rider summons another one by creating a radius of fire around himself, then the horse appears under him and he is automatically mounted. Arise, ye hell horse! Under my groin! The first thing he does now that he has his mount again (if it was not killed in the previous stage it automatically skips to this part) is ride around the battlefield (the fight area) blowing into a bugle to summon fire and poison zombies (four of each at a time, three repeat waves; the next wave only spawns when all of the previous are defeated). The rider does not have his shield or sword up to hit you, but if the horse runs through you it will count as an attack (same attack in the first/third phase from the horse). The horse runs around in a circle clockwise for the second phase and counterclockwise for the fourth phase at about 90% the speed of a charging Deadnaught. Again, the rider does not attack or specifically go after anything in this phase, just run around in circles and throw some zombies at you. The rider and horse are invincible during these stages. You have to kill all the zombies to continue. During the second phase the horse is unable to inflict fire if it runs over you, but during the fourth stage it can.

The fifth and final stage finally separates rider and mount, but not for your benefit; they both attack at the same time separately. The rider acts like a Deadnaught/Slag Guard again (if the horse is defeated within the radius of the rider it will resurrect; you have to kill the rider for the battle to end) with the forward attacking and front shield while the horse simply runs around trying to trample people. The horse only has a shield around its head but will knock you down and deal significant damage if you are trampled/bashed. The horse still deals shadow damage and may inflict fire but the rider will now also deal shadow damage, but will now inflict curse instead of poison. The horse is basically a Trojan but has the ability to turn (up to 45 degree angles maximum) while charging and can move around normally during combat (about the same speed as an average knight) but has a larger body (only the head is shielded; from the base of the neck back is vulnerable to attacks) but if you make contact while the horse is moving regardless of where you make contact will count as attacking you (though the head will deal ~+50% damage compared to any other attacking point). Once the rider is defeated (you can kill the horse if you want but are not required to) the battle ends and a winner is you. During this final stage the rider and horse both become 30% resistant to all specialized damage types but are still neutral to normal damage. Both the rider and horse deal shadow damage at this stage.
End copy-paste

The rider himself uses a gray-green (Final) Flourish reskin which always deals pierce (with a chance to inflict poison) except for his fifth stage where he switches to dealing shadow damage and the chance to inflict poison changes to curse. The rider is slightly smaller than a Deadnaught but dresses as a nobleman (dark green cloth instead of red); except his head is a black skull engulfed in a dark green cloud, at least until the fifth stage where he gains armor (but gray-green instead of bronzed, with the helmet covering the skull) to go with his new defense for that stage.

The horse has three different phases in appearance. The first two phases it stays as a black mare with a skull as a helmet. During the first and second stages the horse does not have the ability to inflict fire. For the third and fourth stage, still wearing the skull helmet, the horse becomes ablaze and gains the ability to ignite knights. On the fifth and final stage the horse becomes skeletal with black bones and still on fire. During the fifth stage the horse moves 20% faster than the previous stages (Deadnaught charge speed, fairly easy to dodge, now with 20% more speed to kill you).

The majority of this was inspired by Silvermail to hopefully get a matching helmet created.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 00:03
#265
Qwez's picture
Qwez
Voltedge... and Vana's servant?

On the Voltedge:

I think that when a person swings at air, the charge attack should still rebound if the charge attack slash is within a block or two of the enemy (electricity would "jump" from the sword to the enemy). The rebounds for this would be significantly weaker to make up for missing the enemy.

I see that you are trying to separate swords and guns, but I think there still should be some leeway for the Voltedge in range because people would gripe about it and nothing would change. If there are nerfing changes to be made, make them step by step, and people moan fewer times about them :P

-Anyways, interesting idea of a rebalance, but I believe it is a little harsh.

On the Skeletos:

1. Is Skeletos supposed to be a new Clockworks boss, or Danger Prestige mission type boss? I know OP was going for LoA boss
2. Does not emphasize enough on the Silvermail aspects as Dragon Scale does with Compound 42.
3. Maybe add some sort of wolver/jelly spawning so that there is a more emphasis on pierce damage. (Sir Skeletos has pets :D)
4. Maybe make curse possible throughout the entirety of the fight, but instead make the boss easier overall to compensate

-I believe that this is a redundant fight (too much like Vana), and doesn't emphasize on using Silvermail all that much. (Compound 42 was elemental, pierce, fire, poison perfectly fitting the stuff on the Dragon Scale)

I think basically what I am thinking, is a Compound 42 but emphasizing Silvermail.

"During this final stage the rider becomes resistant to element damage but weak to shadow damage. The horse is still resistant to shadow and weak to element."
Uh huh, so much for copy and paste...

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 08:45
#266
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Zap

The point of the Voltedge change is to give it advanced range in exchange for some damage. It also forces the user to use the sword as a sword and not a pixie wand because fairies are stupid little floaty boogers. They also make good salt shakers. I mean sugar. If the first enemy is only 2~3 spaces away when you use the charge they should be close enough to approach and actually hit unless the user is afraid to fight with melee weapons. Babies. Babies using swords with electric lasers. Who gave those babies weapons? The fairies?

When I first gave the boss a Flourish-esque weapon I wanted to let it use the basic swing mechanic while dismounted, but then this and Wakfu being distracting and flying orangutans covered in pinto beans. That part where the rider switches resistances is one of a few things changed in this version because it was a little too silly. Later today or something I plan to add a couple more things in, but making curse more prominent is not going to be one of them.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 08:55
#267
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Combuster [Rebalance]

This is more of a range than damage nerf.

In the Voltedge rebalance it gives up some damage in exchange for range, but you still have to connect the initial swing to a target to get results. This time is something relatively similar but will still do something even if you swing and hit air. When you use the charge attack it creates explosions, but instead of going in a linear pattern it forms a cone.

You have an explosion diagonal to the direction you are facing on both sides and an explosion in front of you two spaces away. The explosions are still full 5* size but only inflict ~98 damage (D29, neutral target) and still have the current chance and duration of fire. You get these three explosions regardless if anything is hit by the initial swing. Blippy boopy doop narwhal farkle wumpersnitch intrastate pants detectors, careful questioning for implosive hat cleansers gobble gobble turkeys flying around eating your families. If you use the charge in close range because cowardice is for cowards and you are not one, if the initial swing connects on an enemy each of the three explosions is followed by another explosion. The explosions line up away from your knight, not all in the same direction, to form a DAvenger style attack but without the sword lasers flying away too far.

How about a derpagram:

X = open space
Y = you
E = explosion

Initial swing hits nothing
X X X X X
X E X X X
Y X E X X
X E X X X
X X X X X

Initial swing hits an enemy
X X E X X
X E X X X
Y X E E X
X E X X X
X X E X X

The diagonals would be equally distant from your knight, though trying to represent that in letters is not very practical. Ideally they would follow the same angles the current DAvenger charge does. Each explosion does about 83% (5/6; the damage of five linear explosions delegated to the potential six explosions) the current damage but with more area of effect near you.

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 15:07
#268
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Amassment of defense reworking [Rebalance]

Are you ready for more stuff on defense than you probably ever want to even think exists in the same place at once? Doing it anyway, so put your pants back on and prepare to lose them again without being aware of it. Because there are people out there who will steal your pants very quietly.

First we need to fix how defense works. Ideally defensive armor (anything without an offensive bonus) can be slightly overpowered compared to offensive armor in terms of defense, but not to this degree. According to this each full bar of defense is only -40 damage taken. Not a percent, a flat number. Why? Why would they make defense work that way? Ideally defense works best as a percentage, but it would need a cap to prevent invincibility; if every bar of defense is 10% instead of a flat number (scaled to tier; in T1 0-1* equipment works normally, 2-3* armor defense is cut in half, 4-5* armor defense is cut down to only a fourth) but you can only get 90% defense for the same damage type (once you have 9 bars of a defense you will no longer gain defense for that damage type). All offense based armor would have its defense nerfed to a degree to balance against this since most defensive armor has accumulatively the same defense as offense armor, but with the normal and specialized values switched.

But what if you use Plate for massive normal defense and have a bunch of UVs to increase that even more? Well, if you get more than nine bars of defense for the same damage type (for example, normal defense) then all defense of that type past nine bars translates into 10% of all defenses. That means if you have 9 bars of normal, 7 bars of element, and the helmet or whatever has a UV that gives 1 bar normal, that excess is eaten by piranhas and pooped out as a tenth of a bar of all defenses which are not maxed out; in this case element, shadow, and pierce. Notice how it does not go over the ninth bar of normal for more than 90% defense to normal. Also notice how that excess only becomes 10% of its original value, but for the other defense types which are not yet maxed out. However, if you have more than one defense at 90%, those maxed out defenses will still not be added to. The absolute highest amount of defense per damage type is 90%. If you somehow get 90% for all four damage types with tier appropriate equipment (since it would scale down if you do something like taking T3 armor into T1 and saying your high bar count is completely legit when only a fourth of it actually works in T1, derp) something is horribly wrong. Because you are the new king of the Spiral Order.

Now we need to set some boundaries. What armors are considered defense and which are offense?

Offense

  • Wolver lines (Skolver, Vog Cub, Snarbolax)
  • Gunslinger lines (Nameless, Justifier, Shadowsun, Deadshot)
  • Spiral Demo lines (Volcanic, Bombastic, Mad, Mercurial)
  • Chroma lines (Salamander, Virulisk, Arcane)
  • Angelic lines (Fallen, Valkyrie)
  • Dragon Scale line (Drake)
  • Chaos line (Magic)
  • Silvermail line
  • Seerus masks
  • Fencing Jacket
  • Cyclops Cap
  • Quicksilver line

Defense

  • Plate lines (Volcanic, Ironmight, Ancient)
  • Cobalt lines (Crusader and Azure)
  • Vitasuits
  • Breaker lines (Frost, Ember, Circuit)
  • Jelly lines (Royal and Ice Queen)
  • Skelly line
  • Magic lines exept Chaos (Divine and Grey Feather)
  • Spiral Scale

Unaffiliated

  • Proto
  • Groundbreaker

The first thing we need to determine is whether an average offense and defense item has notable defense difference with their defenses converted to percentages instead of additive.

T1

  • Fencing Jacket: ~1.2 bars normal, +2 sword damage
  • Spiral Scale: ~1.6 bars normal, ~1.4 bars pierce

The difference between these two is +2 weapon specialist damage or +~1.8 bars of defense. That means a +1 weapon specific damage is about 0.9 bars of defense. If that +1 damage is 7% like the Wiki says, that means you can choose 9% defense or 7% damage. This follows the previous point of having defense compared to offense where defense has a slight advantage in raw numbers because the focus for players in this game is to have offense before defense, so if you decide to get defense anyway you get an extra reward. It may only be a 2% difference, but in T1 it beats nothing.

T2

  • Dusker: ~2.9 bars normal, ~2.7 bars pierce, +1 sword damage
  • Boosted Plate: ~5.3 bars normal, -1 universal attack speed

The difference between these two is having the +1 sword damage and keeping -1 attack speed (which counts as -3 because it applies to all three weapons; a double negative effect makes it a +3 advantage) or having 0.3 bars less of defense. What? Well, technically if the defense on Plate is a percent that would count as a huge amount (53% normal defense compared to 29% normal and 27% pierce), but then it has a -3 offense effect while Dusker has a +1 offense effect. What? No. Remember how in T1 a +1 offense bonus was about the same as 9% defense? We have to stay consistent with tiers, but instead of just doubling with every tier scale it by tier count. If T1 is about 1:1, then T2 is about 1:2 and T3 1:3 when comparing an offense bonus to defense. This is still damage types, no statuses yet. For most armor statuses are pretty well set up, except Jelly and Plate lines still have sleep involved when the status was taken out of the game from things that could inflict it on us knights. Genius. Anyway, from here on out I am going to assume they use all the defensive armor buffs or this is going to become "rebalance all the things" and be bigger than the entire thread already is without this post. That means for Plate lines they get that team shielding effect which compensates for the -4 offense effect compared to Dusker, but the defense is just barely lower, and all in the same damage type. Without that team shielding effect, the Plate line would need about 80% more defense which would be ridiculous. Maybe for the two Plate lines that craft up from 2* all the way up to 5* it could have that team shield thing and one or two more bars of health per part, but if we try to buff it solely through defense it would have to get a lot more than a few bars.

T3

  • Skolver: ~7.2 bars normal, ~6.2 bars pierce, +2 sword damage
  • Ironmight: ~10 bars normal, ~6.2 bars pierce, -1 universal attack speed (still effectively a -3 effect)

Nope, not going to go through that again, different things.

  • Heavenly Iron: ~7.2 bars normal, ~6.2 bars shadow, +1 sword damage, +1 fiend bonus
  • Azure Guardian: ~7.5 bars normal, ~6.2 bars pierce, +1.5 bars normal to all party members per part

That Azure team bonus probably looks painfully tasty now that it works as a percent. If you are under the defense cap you can get +30% normal defense just for someone in the party wearing both parts, or if you are exactly at the defense cap for normal 3% defense for pierce, shadow, and element if none of those are maxed. Again, this is all assuming my rebalances are applied, because otherwise I would be rebalancing everything individually all over again; not that I have tried to rebalance everything quite yet, but most things are tackled. Now, assuming the Azure team bonus only applies to yourself because you decided to go solo while the Heavenly Iron user is also solo and both of you are using the full two part set, you can either have +14% sword damage and +14% damage against fiends or +33% normal defense. That means either +28% damage or +33% defense, but the defense option also gives +30% normal defense to all your buddies. Not only does defense have a bigger number but it also helps your team, not to mention it can help you overcap for even more defense flying around just because someone decided to make the easily affordable armor which missions give everyone the recipes for free throughout the mission line. Want to be a team player? You are rewarded. Want to be selfish? Sure, you have more damage, but you would compensate for the lack of team support by being on the offense. Imagine it like a team for almost any sport: you have an offense and a defense. With my rebalances the defense helps everyone get more defense while offense just kills stuff. Before anyone realizes the obvious, no, I have no intent to make a team offense bonus where wearing a certain kind of armor gives the whole party damage or speed or whatever. Only defenses for damage and resistances to statuses.

That was long and painful. Only continue after taking a liquid break or your head will probably explode and all the little pieces will turn into walruses with spider legs and invade Canada.

This one is a lot shorter and simpler than the first thing and probably should have been first, but you would only care if you already read all of that anyway.

Basically, you take normal defense. What does it do? Defend against just normal damage, right? Here is the deal: every bar of normal defense, no matter how many you have, will also count as a fraction of the three specialized defenses. At first I was going to say 10%, but that means if you have ten bars of normal it only gives you one bar of pierce, shadow, and element; not that it would be too bad, but it seems a little too low. Which brings us to the completely not stupid value of 15%. That means if you still have those same ten bars of normal defense from earlier, you get 1.5 bars of pierce, shadow, and element all at once. Not that big of a difference, but better than what little it used to be.

The god of BLT sandwiches commands this post to end for today, though it may continue later. For now kittens must be rolled down stairs into buckets of spiders which turn inside out for amusement. Go forth and consume greasy sandwiches!

Thu, 11/01/2012 - 22:37
#269
Qwez's picture
Qwez
Uh...

I think I just got buried under the walls of texts, so I got protected from the various horrors of the Luguiru mind (I hope).

I'm looking forward to the changes to the other brandishes, but maybe keep one with that still explodes in the same pattern as the current charge. (I can't really think of how many other ways one could change the charge attack without being too similar to another.)
Possibly give Glacius a charge with 5 simultaneous explosions in a semi-circle-ish shape? I dunno, go forth and think for us Luguiru :P

Nice work on rebalances, but it would probably take at least 1 year for OOO to sort it out and finally decide on to work on these changes...

The 10/15% addition of defense bars would look kinda weird on all the armors... Unless it was calculated into the code, in which it would be fine.

-I would like to point out that wearing Ancient Plate in T1 right now makes you king. take small damage, have hugely increased hp.

I'm hungry T.T

Fri, 11/02/2012 - 10:04
#270
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

One of the Brandishes will keep the current linear mechanic, but not necessarily the same damage pattern. The idea behind changing them is the same as the Sealed line rebalances: stop people from hiding behind sword projectiles. If you want range you use a gun. If you want to cut limbs off and feed them to the children of your enemies use a sword.

The big defense stuff? Or the party defense stuff from earlier? Both are weird.

Maybe APlate is supposed to be for T1 then. Do a T3 boss and get T3 armor made for T1. Knowing Three Rings they would probably do something like that.

Want some Halloween candy? How about some evil candy?

Sun, 11/04/2012 - 20:56
#271
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
"T4+" Rewards

Remember all that old dusty T4+ stuff everyone forgot about already? You probably want to forget it again, but too late now. It is time to give people a reason to do it. Because the challenge alone is not sufficient.

First a little debrief of a couple relevant things. Floor length, if you play through casually in the average Arcade floor, only takes about eight to ten minutes. Floors in "T4+" go for around ten to twelve at the same pace; a few more rooms, a couple more dead end hallways, some tedious traps that make you want to punch me for making you suffer and a few other reasons. Now, since floors are not as infinite as they would feel, you eventually get to an end point. What happens in the end? Nothing, your reward is among the several dead ends and what not; and you can never know which one it is until it drops on the floor. Once that happens the party is automatically locked for the rest of the floor and cannot be manually unlocked until the party continues to the next floor. Also, if there are only two dead end boxes remaining, the party will also automatically lock. No warning before it appears, no "oh you can invite your buddies and we can just keep this between us". None of that. Someone goes to an alternate hallway, they open the boxes at the end, the token appears, party is locked. If someone was already loading the floor before the token appeared they would still load in normally and get the token, but anyone who tries to get in as soon as it drops is blocked. That includes if you have one person at the last boxes of the room and someone else waiting and ready to poosh invite on a couple alternate accounts. Because I hate cheaters. If your party gets through the floor but never finds the token, but decides to continue to the next floor anyway, you will not get the token for that floor anyway for giving up. You still got a bunch of heat and a little money from fighting stuff, but the real money and main incentive is behind more annoying tasks than you probably want to take time to do. This is at least 60% designed to reward non-premium players for taking time to enjoy the game and punishing premium players who use elevator passes to rush through a floor as quickly as possible, not simply for being premium. If you are premium and still enjoy playing through a floor you are rewarded for playing the game by playing the game. That probably makes more sense than should be legal.

Okay, now for the fun stuff. This is probably going to sound weird, but the basis of the reward is just 2* weapons. Before you throw those tomatoes and bricks, let me finish: 2* weapons with tradeoffs which give UV-esque bonuses/penalties, but you can still apply UVs to the item and use it to craft items. First of all, there is only one thing you can do with those tokens you can only get one per T4+ floor: one hundred for one T4+ box.

What can the box give you? One of the following weapons:

  • Calibur
  • Brandish
  • Cutter
  • Troika
  • Spur
  • Flourish
  • Blaster
  • Autogun
  • Prismatech Alchemer
  • Shadowtech Alchemer
  • Magnus (3*)
  • Blast Bomb
  • Fiery Vaporizer
  • Toxic Vaporizer
  • Graviton (3*)
  • Dark Matter Bomb
  • Crystal Bomb
  • Splinter Bomb

Whichever of the above listed weapons you get from the T4+ box also has one of the following benefits:

  • +1 attack speed
  • +1 charge time reduction
  • +1 damage (universal)
  • +2 damage to [family]

With one of the following penalties:

  • -1 attack speed
  • -1 charge time reduction
  • -1 damage (universal)
  • -2 damage to [family]

Yes, you might get a bonus which is completely negatived by its penalty. Just to mess with you. You might get a Calibur with +1 charge and -2 fiend, or a Graviton with +1 damage and -1 charge. These effects do not count as UVs. I repeat, these effects do not count as UVs meaning you can add UVs to these weapons to negate the penalty or improve whatever the UV gives you.

Here are a few preemptively answered questions which are probably stupid compared to your own questions:

  • Why are +1 damage and +2 family bonus on the same thing? The family bonus would be overpowered.
  • The universal damage bonus only applies to the weapon itself, not other weapons you may have equipped, but that bonus still applies to everything you fight. That means you can cut the faces off one enemy from all six families and the damage bonus would apply to all six of those now faceless enemies. If you compare the family bonus, it only does anything against one of those six enemies; only useful one sixth of the time but offers double the bonus against that one enemy. Mathematically the family bonus should be +6, but since that would be ridiculous +2 is enough.

  • What if I want a bigger set of effects, like +2 damage with -2 attack speed?
  • No. You can still put UVs on these weapons, your equipment bonuses still take effect, but those bonuses do not get any bigger.

  • Are these tradable? What if I want a specific weapon with a specific set of bonuses, can I still sell it to some other player and maybe even trade it for the item I want?
  • Yes. These weapons are tradable. They come bound, because the box they originally came from was obtained through untradable tokens, but unbinding is relatively cheap for 2* and 3* weapons.

  • Is there an NPC source of all the items with all possible effect combinations to exchange for?
  • No. If you want a specific weapon with a specific set of effects you have to either get it from a box or hope someone else did and would be willing to trade it. That means you have to interact with other players. I know, horrifying. They might have a personality. They might even want friendship to invite you in future T4+ runs to get more of these weird weapons. Quick, someone call the cops, I might just make you be part of a community. All these emphasized words are not sarcastic at all.

  • Okay, so there are weapons, but what about armor? What if I want a Wolver helmet/torso with these weird effects?
  • No. If you want armor, go craft it. In fact, if we get some of those armor rebalances I blathered on about earlier in the thread, you should have more than enough options to aspire for.

  • Why are there no boss token items like Pulsar or Antigua?
  • Because those are boss token items. Silly. In spite of what you may have heard from clone camp, boss token items are supposed to be "rare" and "special", along with "exclusively available for those who do the boss fights enough times to earn the equipment". And then unbinding came along and derped that up.

If you still have questions after all that you know what to do. Throw the nonbeliever in the pits of h- I mean, post it. Nothing to do with flaming agony for all eternity or any of that silliness.

Sun, 11/11/2012 - 20:24
#272
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Plate lines again [Rebalance]

Derkay.

This is going to be a little funky.

This is actually going to involve spitballing at several individual features then passing them out to the three kinds of Plate (Ironmight, Volcanic, Ancient; Ancient is not technically part of the alchemy line but is similar enough to be relevant). Before we start, preheat the oven to 309 degrees.

The first was already written out in this thread. The very first thing in the index you probably completely skipped. This thing you derp. Go check it if you want to know what it is.

The second is actually two features: interruption and knockback resistance. Plate is all about being so heavy and thick a bear can headbutt you in the gut and not even a single tear would be shed nor an inch pushed back. Unfortunately such spectacular tanking ability would be ridiculously powerful, not that Plate is undeserving at the time, but whatever. Resistance to being interrupted and knocked back. Being knocked down is fine, with all that extra weight anyone could just push you over and run away, but knockback is going to have a bad time trying to mess with you. In fact, everyone is going to have a bad time trying to mess with you because you resist interruption, too. What was that? You wanted to spam little tickling attacks? Nurp. I got this big old chunk of metal.

The third is a bit more offensive than Plate should be. Not offensive as in writing racist jokes on surfaces, I mean making it more of an offense based armor to get in the fray and bash heads: a chance to negate a melee attack. Not lower how much damage you take from it, not reverse it to make them slap themself, just ignoring the effects of the attack. Not that having that effect alone is something to sneeze at, since we have tissues if you need them, but it would risk being drastically overpowered. Think about it. How often can you completely ignore that someone swung a sword big enough to cut your head off and not even feel the breeze as it swept by?

The fourth is going to confuse better than it explains. When you get hit by a projectile, not a melee attack (though sword charge projectiles count as projectiles), it brings you closer to whatever shot at you. So if a Polyp derps a spike and it hits you, even if you are moving in a different direction than the spike was or the Polyp is sitting at, you get pulled a little to the Polyp; not just any Polyp, the one that hit you. This would involve complete defiance of knockback from the same projectile to prevent the effect from being useless against projectiles with knockback.

Now that the oven is ready we can throw the Meat Loaf in and get cooking.

First we need to divide what is support and individual based. The first, ally shielding, is obviously support. The rest are individual. Solids. We have five armors t- I mean three, three armors to give these four effects to. Then again, one of them overlaps with another; so be it!

The first effect alone vastly supports teamplay. It may not be a fancy sword damage bonus, gun speed, or bomb charge reduction, but it says to your allies "hey guys I give you the bubbles, do you like the bubbles?" And they would say, "yeah I like bubbles, we can have a bubble party while murdering all these stupid gremlins!" And then kill stuff. Because murder is completely fine as long as bubbles are involved. I would give this effect to either Volcanic or Ironmight lines seeing as Ancient is more fitting as a titan than a team player, but to cheat how time works by looking into the future I am going to give it to Volcanic. The bucket with horns welded on and a face furnace. For more details on how the effect works check the link which you should have already opened and read earlier. Punk.

The second effect, both knockback and interruption resistance, go to Ironmight. You have iron, you have might, and a whole lot of tanking going on. If you sat on someone they would make the expression "flat as a pancake" stupid. It would be replaced by "flat as if someone with Ironmight sat on them". Unless Ironmight gets its own branch before getting to 5*, like having it and Volcanic separate at 3* so they have different 4* variants, we only need to create one set of effects. Each part gets +1 of the effect to match how Volcanic gets +1 of its effect, and each +1 for the effect Ironmight receives grants the user the following:

  • +10% knockback resistance
  • +5% chance to completely ignore received knockback from one attack (but it can work multiple times consecutively if something is rapidly attacking you)
  • -10% chance to be interrupted (do not be fooled by the negative value, it means your chance of being interrupted by an enemy is decreased similar to how the charge bonus says it reduces charge time necessary to prepare a charge attack)

We could try to involve the third effect with the chance to completely ignore a melee attack, but that would get too hectic to be worth the effort.

The third and final effect goes to Ancient: being pulled towards things that hit you with projectiles. Same as the other two, each part gives a +1 effect of a new bonus:

  • when damaged by a projectile, moves 0.5 spaces toward the enemy which attacked with the projectile
  • knockback is ignored while being dragged towards an enemy which damages the user with a projectile (does not apply outside of the circumstance of the above effect)

The dragging effect is to compensate for the lower movement speed by having the retreating enemy help you run them down without having to run any faster than your armor prevents. Unlike the effects given to Ironmight, the stuff Ancient gets does not occur with a chance, it simply happens whenever an enemy hits you with a projectile. If an ally hits you with a fire pot nothing will happen. You will not be dragged around if someone is throwing fire pots at you constantly. That would be hilarious, but Three Rings does not want us to have friendly fire. Remember the old Flamberge glitch. Never forget. Most of you are probably too new to know what it was to begin with, but remember anyway.

All three set bonuses act as bonuses to allow hyrbids the chance to experiment with only one part of the set to check if they want to invest in both parts, but you only get the highest amount of the effect with both parts. Note that none of this involves the three shields relevant to the armors involved here. The shields are good as they are currently.

You might want some sauce on that after taking it out of the oven and letting it cool a few minutes. Tastes a little dry.

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 03:45
#273
Qwez's picture
Qwez
All these nice walls and only me posting ._.

T4+ rewards...
-How would one go to T4+? Is there going to be a magical button to push? or elevators to cross?
-Is there no love for the other haze bombs, wrench wand?
-Are you absolutely sure 100 tokens per box? Seems pretty geared towards elevator pass people. Or is this daily/weekly restricted?

Plate...
-Shield bubble nullifies a third of the damage to teammates, is the full amount of damage taken by the shield or a third?
-Isn't your third armor effect similar to the "sonic mode" where players take negligible amounts of damage at low hp? So we already have this effect in the game across all knights.
-Can you quantify how much better wearing 2 pieces of Volcanic Plate is as opposed to 1? Would it be like 15% bubbling per piece?
-"when damaged by a projectile" : would the Ancient Plate skipping effect work with shield damage?

I would like to know if running into a Roarmulus lazer with my Ancient Plate = flying towards the source of the beam? (Most important :D)

Personal thoughts...
-Ancient plate could get high knockback reduction instead of directional bunny hops. Example: Slow a Trojan charge to a walk by shielding in-front of it. (Slow-as-cake Ancient Plate should not be able to have instantaneous movement.)
-Random possible ideas: shield reflect projectiles, damage bonus, weapon attack knockback bonus, more health overall, increased shield bump force, do damage during shield bumping
-Shield bubble seems out of place: 1 support others effect (bubble), 2 help self effects (anti-knockback + interrupt, jumper skill)

Aha! Analogy!
A wild Metaknight has appeared!
Ancient Plate Knight gives Flower.
Metaknight is focusing power.
Ancient Plate Knight uses Escape.
Escape fail, Ancient Plate Knight is too slow to escape from enemy.
Metaknight uses Bullet Spinstrike.
Ancient Plate Knight is pushed away, Escape chance is increased.
Ancient Plate Knight uses Escape.
Escape fail, Ancient Plate Knight is pulled back by bullet.
Metaknight uses Slash.
Ancient Plate Knight has fainted.
...not every Ancient Plate Knight wants to get in that battle, this one tried to give flowers but got beat up in the process T.T

Mon, 11/12/2012 - 10:02
#274
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
medichasnoidea.gif

I was thinking an Arcade-esque elevator but not lined up with the normal ones. Maybe on the far right of the Arcade, not going south to where the guild hall stuff is apparently going to be but into that right wall, opens up to another area with the gate. Whoever does the token exchange can squat over there, too.

Swagger Storm is a token reward from Krogmo, Voltaic is a token reward from Roarmulus, and Shivermist is far too overused. If they all had a common 2* (or 1* as they used to a while ago) I could just plop that right in there the same way Brandish is. We have too much sword variety and not enough bomb variety. I really want to take Brandish off the list. But I also want my Brandish rebalances to happen so it would be less of a bother.

Yes, one hundred per box. Ten days per item running only on mist. I could set a limit on one entrance per day, so if you go in once, die, then leave, you have to wait until tomorrow to go back in again. People with passes are always going to have an advantage when it comes to floors, but since the tokens are not simply in a box next to the elevator at the end they still have to do stuff. There would be complaints about less capable players whining over not being able to try again in the same day with a limit, though they probably should not be there to begin with.

I think I mentioned how that would work, and the answer is no; if you are the Plate user giving everyone the little bubble effect, it basically takes a chunk of your shield in defense and health and shares it with everyone else. If you have two other people on your team getting hit, the damage absorbed from both of them will damage the same shield, but if it breaks for them only that same size chunk you originally gave them would break for you, and since that chunk was only 20% of your full shield effect per 5* Plate part you have equipped that makes a maximum of 40% of your shield you lost because your allies are derping into spike pads or something.

Does that even still exist? I thought it was patched a while ago. Anyway, that third effect which was not given to an armor line has a chance to happen on any attack no matter how high or low your health is or how hard or weak the attack is. It would be something like +X% chance to have an invincibility frame against a melee attack for a second per effect.

See two paragraphs above.

Y- N- M- I want to say no. If you have your shield up while wearing APlate, even if that shield is part of the set, you would not be pulled toward things that throw rocks at you. I also want to say yes because that would be hilarious considering the set shield is pure normal defense and projectiles are usually heavily specialized damage. You know what? Sure, but only while using the APlate shield.

Stopping a train with APlate would be pretty funny. Ironmight already has some knockback resistance, but giving APlate huge knockback resistance instead of being dragged around would be great. Can Trojans be shield bumped while dashing? If they can, shielding in front of one while it dashes should push it back a little while moving, but it seems more likely that it would simply bounce you off it. What about complete resistance to knockback while shielding? With the full APlate set shield included, that is. You get to walk around and no one can push you around. Then again, APlate has greater shield bumping force according to this so I hesitate to give it even more advantages. Then again, this. Trying not to give the same effect to different things. I am going to have to get back to you on the APlate effects, though I would support giving it big chunks of knockback resistance for the armor but the shield is great as it is currently.

Funny thing about most of those. See the swords here, damage bonuses go against being defense based armor, that link earlier again, this, that again, and no. Damaging with something designed and used for defense is silly. Maybe a Swiftstrike-esque shield that inflicts poison or stun, a non-damaging status, when bumping something but even then would be pushing it a little.

The party bubble is more for someone who would squat somewhere and give people the bubbles without getting in the fray to keep their shield as healthy as possible while the others are more for taking the frontline so their effects absorb more hits instead of the rest of the team. I was going to give them party defense buffs but then Azure Guardian and that already happened and changing it now would be derp. In the Plate rebalance before this I gave the party bubble effect to all three lines but only recently realized that meant the user was laying on the floor with their shield as a blanket instead of doing something in battle.

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 11:40
#275
Pawsmack's picture
Pawsmack
+10

I'm surprised how much time you put into the forums. Honestly seems like you have as much determination as a lead developer. O-o Too bad they aren't hiring people. :L

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 15:25
#276
Severage's picture
Severage
...

Is this necro thread day? Just curious.

~Sev

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 16:29
#277
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

I was going to write up a thing or two today or tomorrow to cool off from a recent pet thread.

I had a meaty post over there but a Blandaxt headache happened and apparently my name is the most difficult thing to remember even when you can see it multiple times on your screen in bright blue letters on a dark blue background and it never changes no matter how many posts I have and this sentence is rather long. Might just put what I had up on this thread so I can continue where I normally leave loose ends for the original thread to continue, but seeing as people only cared about minor wording it was wasted. No more pet threads for me after this.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 17:07
#278
Severage's picture
Severage
...

No more pet threads for me after this.

Sounds...familiar...

~Sev

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 18:34
#279
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Trinkets which are pets which are trinkets which do some stuff

This first part is copy-pasted from some other thread. If I cared to link it I would have done so already.

I would start by having them equip as trinkets but you can only have one pet equipped at a time. You can have a pet with a health, resistance, defense, or offense bonus trinket but not two pet trinkets at once. That pins how you equip it.

Then I would start them off with alchemy lines, but starting with 2* and allowing UVs to grant status affiliation. No "herp derp damage/speed/walrus-eating bonus +waffle" nonsense, just status resistances for the pet itself; but if it does get a resistance, it gets a negative value of a different status. The possible resistances would be fire, shock, freeze, and poison. No stun or curse. They can only get single UVs and may not be rolled through Punch. You have to get UVs out of crafting. Also, the star rating is the cap on how many bars of status resistance it may have (2* can only have up to 2 bars of resistance to a status, etc.).

In the original context pets started as 0* and were obtained through tokens.

As for what you use to craft them, mostly materials. A lot of materials. Not just some special material you can only get in the Arcade as a rare drop, I mean hundreds of materials just for a starting 2*. To start an example here to run through these examples, say we want a "healing" Silkwing. You would need, say; one hundred of these, another hundred of these, yet another hundred of these, fifty of these, and ten of these. Yes, costs from 3* and up are also heavily material consuming. Not necessarily the exact same amount and kinds of materials, but more than you would imagine necessary to create something so tiny.

In the original context food for these trinket-pet-things are also crafted through materials and will be explored later in this post.

This is where it gets complicated: what and how they work. Not like I already wrote stuff similar to this topic, but I have given this thought before posting. Introverts be rolling. Anyway, back to our example; "healing" Silkwing. Does it have health and defenses like us? Yurp, but not necessarily as high as ours. At 2* our knights would have around five or six accumulative bars of defense and maybe a couple bars of status resistance, right? Good enough for us? Well these little boogers we drag against their wills around with us get less than half the lower range of defenses when scaled to our equipment star ratings. So if a 2* armor normally has around five bars of accumulative defense (our helmet and torso defenses are averaged while resistances are additive; defenses for the pet are taken from only one source and does not involve averaging as our armor does) the little butterfly-moth-thing only gets about 3 bars of accumulative defense at the most. Since this thing is practically a medic bump it down to only two bars of something simple and safe, normal defense.

This is to clarify that these trinket-pet-things are not supposed to be anything remotely similar to a tank. They have significantly low health and defenses compared to our knights and do not have the option to equip health trinkets as we do.

So the 2* has two bars of normal defense, big deal. You can just revive it whenever, right? You know by now every time I end a question with "right" it is being used as a rhetorical question or in sarcasm, so of course not. Actually, before making people hate me more than they already do because of the way I tend to word things, the little bug needs a health value or something. You already have a stamina system that counts down as the little nugget does stuff, but that would create an ammo system. Do you use its stamina here or there? If you created pets that can actually fight on their own, maybe, but remember the AI is not necessarily intelligent enough to aim with all creatures we would be enslaving for personal amusement. Unless you plan on raising a T3 rocket turret. Same idea with defenses, half at the most of the related armor value: in this case only one at H1. Well liquids. You know what? Our health from armor is additive like status resistances, so instead of splitting where it fits make it scale to the armor as is. That means only one to five health throughout the ranks, but remember: you are not supposed to be using it for combat. Everyone else might think "herp Wolver do the fighting stuff derp", but I am too stubborn to accept that outside of the whole engineering stuff where it would be too wimpy to work without you using support items to buff it; most of these people just want their doggy to eat people, I want it to focus on creating things that you have to actively manage or it all falls apart. If your precious little snuggle buddy is defeated in combat it has to wait out a thirty minute real time countdown, all of which must be served while logged in, and comes back from the metaphorical grave with zero stamina because you are an awful parent and must nurse it back to health. More on stamina and feeding below.

In the original context 'stamina' was consumed with every action the pet does and is replenished by feeding it. Different pets had different stamina pools. If stamina is zero the pet will become completely unusable until it has at least one.

This seems to be one of the major factors in the whole thread. Going to use Wakfu as a reference for a bit, but it will go away after this paragraph. Over there feeding pets is how they gain experience. For us, not that this is normal for what item type they are, heat is experience. That means they gain heat like normal equipment. They also gain a little more defense and health (+~1 bar defense at H10 compared to H1, gains one max health on top of its normal amount at H5) by leveling with heat, but upgrading through crafting is still better if you really want to increase that health and defense. It also increases whatever effect the pet does. More on that in the next paragraph, but before that we need to go over stamina and feeding. With your system stamina is depleted with every single action, but that comes down to whoever has the most materials farmed wins because they can stuff their pet to keep its stamina as high as possible forever. Over in that other game, the feeding system wants you to feed it at least once every three days (it counts to the exact second with great accuracy and has a timer on its menu) but no more often than once every eight hours (with the same accurate timing). Feeding it less often than once every three days or more often than once every eight hours would deplete its health/stamina by one. Dying would also hurt the pet, but since death is already punished we can leave that part out. Since I am not stupid enough to simply take everything in the other game and plop it down here on our laps, this is my version: all pets have ten maximum stamina and must be fed within the same time frame as earlier, but every stamina lost makes the pet lose 10% all defensive values and 5% efficacy of whatever the pet does. That means if it has only five of ten stamina it will only have half its normal health and defenses, including status resistances (only applies to positive resistances; status vulnerabilities are not affected by being increased or decreased) but every accepted feeding restores one stamina if it does not have full stamina. If it has full stamina it will not have more than the maximum for your good behavior. As for where food comes from, expect more on that tomorrow when my eyeballs have rested a little.

I forgot to mention in Wakfu pets have twenty 'stamina' but you absolutely have to be premium to access the means to restore pet health and feeding in Wakfu does not restore pet health whatsoever. In Dofus, the prequel game to Wakfu, there is a service where you can leave pets to feed your pet regularly over time for you but you have to pay by the hour to have the pet in there. Seeing as the version we have here restores pet health from feeding and getting food is not difficult as long as you have materials, which will be further detailed later, neither of those systems are brought over.

Last thing for tonight before I go to bed and have more strange dreams hopefully not involving ballerinas: a pet mechanic example, the Silkwing; or at least one of them. I have several ideas. The less naughty ones are relevant here. Normally people would say, "oh look medic bug thing it are give the heals and we is win forever snorting everything at once", but this is nothing like that. As the (slave) owner of this particular Silkwing, the "healing" one to be specific, it retrieves all hearts within its view (eight space radius for the little booger) and holds onto them in its little bug pockets. They have to be your hearts, meaning you have not used them yet and have dropped from an enemy or a heart box. They will not retrieve health from heart pads. If you are damaged it will run/fly up to you and deploy as much hearts into you as it can. If you had full health one moment but the butterfly-moth has ten pips worth of hearts stored up, and you lose one full bar, it will fly right into your face and vomit one heart from its pants into your face. It will follow you around until it finds hearts somewhere nearby when it will try to fly over to it and grab it for you. Remember, Silkwings have no attack ability, meaning it will fly right into a pit of death just to get one measly heart for you. It still has liquids low defenses and health even at 5* (~7.5 bars normal defense and 5 health at 5* H10 where its defenses and health are at their max) so pay attention to it. Again, the healing ability from this little bug does not come out of thin air, it gets that health from hearts it picked up which you could have picked up yourself to retrieve the health. If it dies in battle all stored hearts are destroyed and it undergoes the countdown to revival as all pets would face. Say you came into the Clockworks with your Silkwing buddy, the same one as throughout this post, but it only has 5/10 stamina. What happens to it? First of all, its defenses (and status resistance) and health are cut in half. Say you went all out balls to the wall and made it 5*H10 so it has around 7.5 bars normal defense, 5 health, and over the past several floors it collected exactly ten pips worth of hearts for you. Since its stamina is only half, it now has around 3.75 bars of normal defense, 3 health (0.5 rounded up to 1), but still holding ten pips worth of hearts (or so you think). Fine, its defense is lower, Fine, its health is lower. But what did you do to its health bank, you evil villain of vileness? Remember that efficacy lose mentioned earlier? Loses 5% per stamina missing, meaning 5% * -5 efficacy equals -25% efficacy. See these ten pips worth of health you worked 'hard' to collect? Now it only counts as 8 hearts (7.5 rounded up) because you are a horrible master. I mean owner.

Another thing real quick. Throughout alchemy ranks the ability of a pet has limits. The same Silkwing for example has a limit on how many hearts it can hold depending on its star rating: at 2* it can only hold up to five pips worth of hearts, at 3* it can hold up to seven, at 4* it can hold up to ten, and at 5* it can hold up to 15. It never uses your hearts to heal itself even if it only has half a bar of health left but fifteen hearts waiting to be used and if it dies all those hearts will break. You should feel bad about yourself, breaking all those young and innocent hearts. Think of their families.

HIGHLIGHTED-BOLDED-FANCY-FONT-ALL-CAPS-LINE-OF-SEPARATION

After going through that again I was watching for the reason behind a complaint in the other thread over inappropriate content. The only "bad" phrase was "it will fly right into your face and vomit one heart from its pants into your face". If that offends you in any way I recommend seeing someone about your oversensitivity. I also want to know why you are not questioning that a butterfly-moth-thing is wearing pants with pockets.

Wed, 11/21/2012 - 18:43
#280
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Trinket-pet-things, food

This is where the 'fun' starts. You must be as excited as I am to discuss pets again. I could just strangle childr-

Food. How to. How to food? Each pet-trinket-thing is based on an enemy which has a family. Each family has an individual name. Like Johnson. No. The recipes for crafting pets and food are both Arcade exclusive to breathe some life into it, but instead of primarily consuming energy the recipe itself exclusively calls for materials. There are recipes for each star rank but depending on what star rank your pet is determines how satisfied it is with what you feed it (if you have a 5* pet and feed it 4* or lower it will not replenish stamina but will count as having been fed).

You already pay crowns to get the recipes, which have the same cost to star rating system as our equipment recipes have, but the recipes themselves are mostly variations on making the same thing but for each of the six families:

  • Beast family food

    These delicious treats (warning, not meant for knight consumption) make your fluffy and/or scaled little buddy happy in the tummy and want to have nap time. That sentence makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Remind me to vomit later. Here are the recipe options:

    • 2*: Beast Biscuit
      • Red Shard x10
      • Green Shard x10
      • Critter Carapace x5
      • Monster Bone x5
    • 3*: Fiercely Flavorful
      • Red Shard x15
      • Green Shard x15
      • Critter Carapace x10
      • Monster Bone x10
      • Bushy Tail x5
      • Drake Scale x2
    • 4*: Savage Snacks
      • Red Shard x20
      • Green Shard x20
      • Critter Carapace x15
      • Monster Bone x15
      • Bushy Tail x10
      • Drake Scale x5
      • Warp Dust x3
    • 5*: Feast of the Beast
      • Red Shard x25
      • Green Shard x25
      • Critter Carapace x20
      • Monster Bone x20
      • Bushy Tail x15
      • Drake Scale x10
      • Warp Dust x5
      • Dragon Scale x1
      • Primal Ore x1

  • Construct family food

    Are you sure robots are supposed to eat like this? It seems weird. Not that having a machine as a servant is completely normal, but..

    • 2*: Metal Munch
      • Blue Shard x10
      • Light Shard x10
      • Driftwood x5
      • Iron Gear x5
    • 3*: Mechanical Meal
      • Blue Shard x15
      • Light Shard x15
      • Driftwood x10
      • Iron Gear x10
      • Redwood x5
      • Rocket Sprocket x2
    • 4*: Gears to Grind
      • Blue Shard x20
      • Light Shard x20
      • Driftwood x15
      • Iron Gear x15
      • Redwood x10
      • Rocket Sprocket x5
      • Ironwood x3
    • 5*: Metal Fondue
      • Blue Shard x25
      • Light Shard x25
      • Driftwood x20
      • Iron Gear x20
      • Redwood x15
      • Rocket Sprocket x10
      • Ironwood x5
      • Plasma Cell x1
      • Sun Silver x1

  • Fiend family food

    Even spawn of the underworld need to eat.

    • 2*: Charcoal Chips
      • Dark Shard x10
      • Red Shard x10
      • Forbidden Fruit x5
      • Swordstone x5
    • 3*: Foul Fishsticks
      • Dark Shard x15
      • Red Shard x15
      • Forbidden Fruit x10
      • Swordstone x10
      • Phial of Phear x7
    • 4*: Office Party Platter
      • Dark Shard x20
      • Red Shard x20
      • Forbidden Fruit x15
      • Swordstone x15
      • Phial of Phear x15
      • Mug of Misery x3
    • 5*: SuppUr
      • Dark Shard x25
      • Red Shard x25
      • Forbidden Fruit x20
      • Swordstone x20
      • Phial of Phear x25
      • Mug of Misery x5
      • Trojan Horseshoe x1
      • Shadow Steel x1

  • Gremlin family food

    A lot of people have fantasies of being gremlins themselves. Now they have a gremlin eating out of the palm of their hand. This is awkward.

    • 2*: Crimson Caramels
      • Blue Shard x10
      • Red Shard x10
      • Fuel Canister x5
      • Gremlin Gizmo x5
    • 3*: Knocker Nuggets
      • Blue Shard x15
      • Red Shard x15
      • Fuel Canister x10
      • Gremlin Gizmo x10
      • Fine Fabric x5
      • Unstable Core x2
    • 4*: Siege Sustenance
      • Blue Shard x20
      • Red Shard x20
      • Fuel Canister x15
      • Gremlin Gizmo x15
      • Fine Fabric x10
      • Unstable Core x5
      • Meteor Mote x3
    • 5*: Tinkinzar Taquitos
      • Blue Shard x25
      • Red Shard x25
      • Fuel Canister x20
      • Gremlin Gizmo x20
      • Fine Fabric x15
      • Unstable Core x10
      • Meteor Mote x5
      • Silverweave x1
      • Volcanic Iron x1

  • Slime family food
    In progress
  • Undead family food
    In progress

Fudd is gudd.

Thu, 01/17/2013 - 17:54
#281
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Trinket-pet-things, pets

Blah blah read this before continuing blah.

All (all) pets have the same health when comparing the same star rating and heat level. All. They are only reiterated to remind everyone that no one gets special treatment on health.
__________________________________________________________________

"Silkwing (health)"

Ever came to a bunch of heart boxes and already have full health, but you think you might take a few punches later on? This little flying butterfly-moth thing may take a trinket slot, but in exchange for what could be a bunch of health or a meaty weapon bonus it sees those wasting hearts and stores them for when you lose health. Its detection radius, meaning how far away from itself it will notice hearts it can retrieve, comes in handy in higher ranks but can also be a penalty; remember, Silkwings have no means of defending themselves. If it gets out of your reach and happens to attract attention its only hope is to find its way back to you before getting cut into delicious and crunchy pieces. What? Silkwings are a delicacy.

  • 2*:
    • 2~3 bars normal defense (H1~H10)
    • 1 health (2 health at H5+)
    • stores up to 5 pips/bars worth of hearts (hearts may only be collected from your drops; if you use them the pet will not obtain them; heart pads are not valid sources of hearts for the pet to store)
    • detects and gathers hearts within a 4 space radius of itself (if more hearts are detected while retrieving a previously detected source of hearts, the second source is prioritized as the next waypoint; when no hearts are detected it follows the owner)
  • 3*:
    • 3~4 bars normal defense
    • 2 health (3 at H5+)
    • stores up to 7 pips/bars worth of hearts
    • detects and gathers hearts within a 5 space radius of itself
  • 4*:
    • 4~4.5 bars normal defense and 2~3 bars of shadow defense
    • 3 health (4 at H5+)
    • stores up to 10 pips/bars worth of hearts
    • detects and gathers hearts within a 6.5 space radius of itself
  • 5*:
    • 4~4.5 bars normal defense and 5~6 bars of shadow defense
    • 4 health (5 at H5+)
    • stores up to 15 pips/bars worth of hearts
    • detects and gathers hearts within an 8 space radius of itself

When hearts which you could walk over and use immediately, the kind that drop from boxes and sometimes enemies when defeated, are detected by this pet it will fly over and retrieve them for you. The hearts are then stored on the pet with a counter which appears somewhere in the HUD while in the Clockworks with this particular pet active (other pets with similar storage abilities will have their counter in the same area; this counter only appears with a relevant pet active) but does not display to other team members.

Actually, that counter or whatever the pet has going on that needs something in the HUD also has the pet health display on the right side of your screen. Unless you have your inventory or loadouts open at the same time it would not clutter the screen significantly. It can be shrunk down so the bars are smaller and the counter is smaller than the energy symbol which appears on our party health stuff around the top left.

This section was written November 21, 2012. The mechanic overview for the Silkwing pet was added on November 23, 2012.
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"Gremlin"

This is the only time one of these little boogers is going to be able to attack, but not without you; more specifically not without your bomb.

Gremlins are well known for one thing. No, not furries. Science. Unlike the other families, though fiends are questionably close, gremlins not only have an order but a kingdom. They build war machines. They have two melee, one healing, one bomber, and one range-esque type of enemy in regular areas. If you have the expansion you get to fight gremlin ninjas and siege units. If the behavior designs involved more teamwork abilities, like Thwackers being able to use their mallet-wrench-things to dent areas of the floor creating pitfalls for knights to fall in, they would probably be the most difficult family to fight against. One of these days I might go back into my T4+ stuff and add new abilities for all the existing enemies. If I did gremlins would definitely be first to add stuff to.

Anyway, the gremlin pet is basically a kid gremlin. Big surprise. It follows you around because you ensla- I mean kidna- I mean liberated from the Crimson Order. Why should you care? It was originally taught to become a demolitionist, but since it thinks of you as its bomber daddy it learns from you; but the fun does not stop there. Not even close. The little fluffy guy may not have the ability to make or use bombs on its own, but if you as its mast- I mean own- I mean best friend, if you drop a bomb it will pick it up (but with most features significantly reduced because it lacks the bombing abilities knights have) and hold onto it until it decides to attack something, in which case it will run up to it and place the bomb then run back to you like the little baby it literally is. Regardless of high its star rating it can only hold one bomb at a time ever.

Back to the reduced abilities and bomb retrieval before getting into specifics. It picks up the bomb once you place it by running onto it and grabbing it, meaning it did not detonate yet. It has to pick up the bomb before the fuse ends or it will be unable to retrieve it. Normally it follows you around like the Silkwing does, but in this case it only runs around on its own to plop a bomb in its fuzzy little hands near an enemy then immediately runs back to you. When it does deploy a bomb for you, which only happens when an enemy is within certain circumstances (the pet gets close enough to any enemy within a certain radius length or you attack something within a certain distance, varies by rank) the bomb it places is not the same as the one you gave it. Its damage, blast radius, and any secondary effects (knockback, statuses, etc.) are reduced depending on the star rating on the pet. The bomb still works the same, just reduced size and damage. And status if it has one. And knockback. Understand? It does not simply take a bomb from you and run out to deploy it in full effect. I know a lot of people pretend to read through some of these posts and think they have all the details perfected in their juicy little noggins. What did I mean by 'juicy'? What do you mean, cannibalism?

  • 2*:
    • 1~1.5 bars of normal defense, 1~1.5 bars element defense
    • 1 health (2 at H5)
    • retrieves a bomb set by the user and redeploys to a target; enemy detection radius of 2 spaces on its own or 4 if the user attacks the target
    • the redeployed bomb has 20% the damage and blast radius, and 30% the status rate and knockback of the original bomb
  • 3*:
    • 1.5~2 bars of normal defense, 1.5~2 bars of element defense
    • 2 health (3 at H5+)
    • retrieves a bomb set by the user and redeploys to a target; enemy detection radius of 3 spaces on its own or 5 if the user attacks the target
    • the redeployed bomb has 30% the damage and blast radius, and 35% the status rate and knockback of the original bomb
  • 4*:
    • 3~3.75 bars of normal defense, 3~3.75 bars of element defense
    • 3 health (4 at H5+)
    • retrieves a bomb set by the user and redeploys to a target; enemy detection radius of 4 spaces on its own or 6 if the user attacks the target
    • the redeployed bomb has 40% the damage and blast radius, and 40% the status rate and knockback of the original bomb
  • 5*:
    • 4~5.25 bars of normal defense, 5~6.25 bars of element defense
    • 4 health (5 at H5)
    • retrieves a bomb set by the user and redeploys to a target; enemy detection radius of 5 spaces on its own or 7 if the user attacks the target
    • the redeployed bomb has 50% the damage and blast radius, and 45% the status rate and knockback of the original bomb

To clarify again: the bomb does not come out of thin air, you have to take the time to prepare one and only up to one bomb for it to carry. It will not hold more than one bomb at a time under any circumstances. The redeployable bomb never has more than half the features of the original bomb in any way except for the fuse time which stays the same for the redeployed bomb as the original. If you are not a bomber this pet will do nothing useful for you in combat since it will follow you around all the time unless it gets a bomb from you (bombs from other knights are not retrievable) and risk being killed, in which case you have to take the time and materials to nurse it back to health.

This section was written on November 23, 2012.
__________________________________________________________________

"Scuttlebot"

Ever found yourself forever alone in the Clockworks trying to get more minerals on your back, but not willing to risk the back pain?

But you can only carry one chunk at a t-

Quiet, you. Well with this little robotic...spider...?..thing, you can bring more minerals with you for some glowy-metally-chunky fun. What was that? Nothing fun about any of that? Well, you silly little...I am going to kill your fami-

Anyway, the Scuttlebot has one major ability which actually covers multiple: it can carry certain objects for you, including another mineral chunk* or a key. You can place a key or mineral, not both at the same time, on its metallic back for it to carry as a sla- I mean, personal little buddy. Why would anyone not want to do that all the time? Well, my naive friend/enemy/whatever the liquids you are, the poor little robot loses movement speed while carrying your stuff. You probably should have asked for a stronger model, but since the factory already closed down due to gremlin raids it looks like you have to deal with what you have. You can still kick it if you want. Your legs are too scrawny to do any real damage to it. To place a mineral/key on the Scuttlebot you must first be carrying one. If you have both a mineral on your back and a key above your noggin the key takes priority. Basically, you interact with the pet by interacting/using the attack command (right click and Z by default) while next to and facing it. If the Scuttlebot is killed the mineral or key drops where it died. If you interact with the Scuttlebot while it is holding something you will grab whatever you put on its back if you are able to grab it (not shielding or already holding a key/statue if you are trying to take a key off the Scuttlebot).

* Mineral size is reduced to minumum while the Scuttlebot is carrying it. If you give it a 2 or 4 size mineral it will only count as a 1 size when the floor is cleared. You can take the mineral off it and carry it yourself, but that would switch any mineral on your back to go back on the Scuttlebot. You can also have the Scuttlebot drop the mineral. See stores for details, ask your parents before playing with allegedly tamed homicidal robots, batteries not included or necessary.

To make it less unfair, unlike their incompetent relatives built by gremlin hands, our versions of these little boogers have different movement speeds; they can be up to standard knight speed to keep up with you normally. The Silkwing and gremlin from before? Not quite as fast to make sure you pace yourself. And because their movement speed is never hindered by owner abuse. Their running speed starts slow in the early ranks, but later on it becomes more comparable.

  • 2*:
    • 0.5~1 bar of normal defense, 1.5~2 bars of element defense
    • 1 health (2 health at H5+)
    • base movement speed of 60% (compared to a standard knight), lowered to 40% while carrying a mineral or key
  • 3*:
    • 1.25~1.75 bars of normal defense, 1.75~2.25 bars of element defense
    • 2 health (3 health at H5+)
    • base movement speed of 70%, lowered to 45% while carrying a mineral or key
  • 4*:
    • 2.25~3 bars of normal defense, 3.75~4.5 bars of element defense
    • 3 health (4 health at H5+)
    • base movement speed of 80%, lowered to 50% while carrying a mineral or key
  • 5*:
    • 3~4.25 bars of normal defense, 6~7.25 bars of element defense
    • 4 health (5 health at H5+)
    • base movement speed of 100%, lowered to 60% while carrying a mineral or key

Since this Scuttlebot skipped murdering class regularly it lacks any combat abilities such as sneezing boolits in the faces of its enemies and... Anyway, it just follows you around all the time like a lost puppy with no means of defending itself or fighting back, but if it dies at least whatever it was carrying drops on the floor so you can just pick it up yourself you lazy-

This was at least slightly inspired by this. Maybe a little.

This section was also written on November 23, 2012.
__________________________________________________________________

"Chromalisk"

Originally this one was going to be after Kat and whatever jelly thing, but two words made this function take priority: vial crafting.

The first part of this circus is the ability to carry vials. Starting at 2* it can only carry up to three vials at a time but that increases with star rank, though it can never hold more than three of the same kind of vial at once. It can also only hold up to four different kinds of vials at all star ranks, except at 2* it can only hold three vials making the fourth slot pointless so you can mentally ignore that if you want. Physically you have to punch kittens until their bones splinter and blo-

While your adorable little derp-eyed lizard is holding vials for you in its...intestines...certain combinations will cause it to plop out a different vial by "crafting" them together. It can only combine vials from the same tier (meaning no T3 fire vials with T1 freeze vials) and has a cooldown on "crafting" for ten seconds upon doing so. It can only "craft" using the vials in its inventory/vial-holding-things, still being from the same tier (though it can hold vials from different tiers) using the following "recipes":

  • 1 fire vial + 1 freeze vial = 1 remedy
  • 1 shock vial + 1 poison vial = 1 remedy
  • 1 stun vial + 1 sleep vial = 1 remedy
  • 1 fire vial + 1 shock vial + 1 freeze vial + 1 remedy = 1 curse vial
  • 2 T1 pills = 1 T2 pill
  • 2 T2 pills = 1 T3 pill
  • 3 {status} vials + 1 remedy = 1 {status} vial of the next tier (not possible using T3 vials)

Yesterday I was thinking about whether pills should be craftable from other vials, like one of each status or a bunch of curse and remedies at once, but that would turn this pet into a drug dispenser. Insert garbage vials, get health. Not happening. Punk.

How do you manage vials between yourself and the lizard? It has its own vial inventory like we do. You can only take, give, and move vials while the lizard is next to you. If it runs off to derp land or dies you will not be able to do anything to its vial inventory other than look at it and cry over the health pills you left on it. It can also only hold and craft using vials of a certain tier if its star rating is equal or higher than that of the vial. That means if you have a 2* or 3* lizard and you want it to play with T3 vials they are going to sit in its inventory and do nothing. They might laugh behind your back but nothing more. If you keep health pills on the lizard it will not use them to heal itself. You can click and drag vials off the little booger while near it within a range which increases with star rating, but those dropped vials drop near the pet. Not you. The vials do not teleport to your feet. It can hold up to three of the same kind of vial and may not hold more than three of the same vial at once, same as our knights are disallowed. The lizard lacks the ability to become "invisible" as our enemies do, but it still helps you with vials. Be more appreciative.

  • 2*:
    • 1.5~2 bars of normal defense, 0.5~1 bars of pierce defense
    • 1 health (2 at H5+)
    • can hold up to 3 different kinds of vials
    • can hold up to 3 vials in total
    • may only drop held vials within 1 space of the owner
    • can only craft with, create, and hold T1 vials
  • 3*:
    • 2~2.5 bars of normal defense, 1~1.5 bars of pierce defense
    • 2 health (3 at H5+)
    • can hold up to 3 different kinds of vials
    • can hold up to 6 vials in total
    • may only drop held vials within 1.5 spaces of the owner
    • can craft with, create, and hold T1 and T2 vials
  • 4*:
    • 3.5~4.25 bars of normal defense, 2.5~3.25 bars of pierce defense
    • 3 health (4 at H5+)
    • can hold up to 4 different kinds of vials
    • can hold up to 8 vials in total
    • may only drop held vials within 2 spaces of the owner
    • can only craft with, create, and hold T1 and T2 vials; may hold T3 vials
  • 5*:
    • 5~5.75 bars of normal defense, 4~4.75 bars of pierce defense
    • 4 health (5 at H5+)
    • can hold up to 4 different kinds of vials
    • can hold up to 12 vials in total
    • may only drop held vials within 3 spaces of the owner
    • can craft with, create, and hold all kinds of vials

The lizard will not pick up vials on its own. You have to manually move vials from yourself over to its vial inventory. Just like the rest of the runts of the litter, it lacks any attacking ability of its own. The gremlin was an exception. Kind of. Without you giving it a bomb it has no attacking ability, but since bombers are an endangered species they get something nice for once. There might be something for gunners at some point.

This section was written on November 25, 2012.
__________________________________________________________________

"Jelly"
Estimated time of content arrival: January 19, 2013
__________________________________________________________________

Others are in progress

Sat, 11/24/2012 - 15:53
#282
Aureate's picture
Aureate
Pets? PETS?!

I'll give 'em pe-
Ahem.

Anyway, your ideas seem like the most valid permanent pet ideas I've seem in a while. Silkwing doesn't heal ad infinitum but acts more like an extra tank for hearts; kid Gremlin picks up your bombs and messes around with them like your annoying little brother; Scuttlebot carries stuff. All reasonable ideas.
The t4 weapons with inbuilt bonuses and penalties seem a little awkward to me, since it would be easy for one of them to mess up a whole loadout (I wanted all my bombs to have even amounts of CTR bonuses, dammit, what are you doing giving me +1 CTR and innate -1 ASI on a Freezing Vaporiser, my life is ruined). This is just because I am kind of weird and pedantic.
Curious as to what you could make of jellies. Possibly a status-spreading ooze. Also, I was sort of hoping for little devil-ITs running around and bringing me mugs of coffee, but there are only two families with healing monsters and gremlins healing knights would be weird so I'll take what I can get.

Sun, 11/25/2012 - 15:53
#283
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

All that engineering stuff before it is my version of combat "pets" while that newer stuff is just pets without quotes. The plan right now is to make at least one kind of pet for each family so the food variety is useful, each of which is basically an active effect trinket as opposed to some extra health or weapon specialist bonus most people use without creating the same stupid nonsense people pretend to cook up but deliver raw.

Those are mainly for people between having all the UVs they can fit in their nostrils and people with little to no bonuses on their equipment. They kind of have some nice UVs, but nothing spectacular or perfect. Originally I was going to make it go up to +2 for one of the three weapon effects and -2 for another specific one, like if you got +2 damage you would always get -2 attack speed or if you got +2 charge you got -2 damage, but that seemed too straightforward. Too solid. Solids.

Something like that. Been kicking around some ideas for both the Kat and jelly pet, it eventually got distracted with a Chromalisk that does stuff with vials. While writing that sentence I had a few more thoughts on all three of them and might write one or two today. Maybe even all three. Might bump into other things for a few laughs.

Anyone else in the mood for some shenanigans? I got some of this and that.

Mon, 12/10/2012 - 17:31
#284
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Angelic lines [Rebalance]

What? Angelic? Never heard of it.

What does this armor have?
Fire weakness.
I mean what makes it useful.
Normal, shadow, curse, and poison defenses.
Very good, Vernon.
Why is my name Vernon?
Because I want to make a Walking Dead reference.

First thing: this has nothing to do with changing the defenses or resistances and focuses on the effects from the armor which currently involves fiend damage bonuses/penalties. At 5* the branches have a slightly wider variety, Fallen gaining attack speed while Heavenly Iron gets some sword damage in addition to having some fiend bonuses, but who uses these other than as costumes? For the shadow defense? Say you want normal, shadow, and poison defenses. Valkyrie has that and +2 fiend per part. Alright. Not too shabby. But wait, what about Dread Skelly? It has more shadow defense, freeze resistance, and no weakness to fire; but no curse resistance or fiend bonus. Do you really want that fiend bonus? What about that curse resistance? Is it worth the fire weakness, a common status, as opposed to not having curse resistance? How often do you need curse resistance in the Clockworks? But wait again, we have the Snarbolax armor set with more normal defense, the same shadow defense, both the freeze and poison resistance Skelly has, and +2 sword damage per part.

Snarbolax sounds a whole lot like Skolver, right? It should. The original thread wanted it to give +1 sword damage and attack speed per part, not be another Skolver. You know, like a middle ground between Vog Cub and Skolver. Sure, you would still be getting an accumulative +4 sword effect, but not all in one bonus like the other Wolver lines. An alternative was to give it some sword charge. You know what I would be interested to see, not necessarily as Snarbolax but as a completely separate equipment line from Wolver? Something that gives a little sword charge, maybe at 5* have the helmet or torso give +1 sword charge and +1 sword damage while the other gave +1 sword charge and +1 sword attack speed. Shake things up a little. You know what? Expect to see something on that later. Because no one else wants to make suggestions on rebalancing equipment or creating new and balanced equipment, no; that would be too complicated. Making derpbillion threads about how Lockdown is imbalanced while creating biased resolutions, on the other hand, is a far better use of all our time.

What can I say about Angelic? Really situational. Think of what it means to be an angel in the sense of religious/holy/spaghetti: fiends are evil, so angels smite them. Pretty straightforward. Fallen is about becoming a fallen angel. Alright. Not too complicated. Heavenly Iron seems a little more down to earth than Valkyrie, a little more humble. What do we do with these? Keep them how they are? Of course not, Mister Mango Monkeys. You have a strange name. The first thing we need to know is if these armors have any connection with items outside themselves. Sealed lines. Look at Avenger. Holy. Bright. Yellow. "Good". Obsessed with spewing damage out of its nostrils. Valkyrie likes dealing more damage to fiends, though they are not vulnerable to element making its suiting weapon a little silly. What about Faust? Fast attacks. Purple. Dark. "Evil". Obviously something to do with Fallen. Fallen penalizes damage against fiends, Faust deals shadow which fiends are resistant to. Fallen gives attack speed, Faust likes to swing fast with basic swings. Now take those two pairs and compare what happens. Valkyrie is doing pretty good, especially against fiends in spite of Avenger not dealing pierce damage, but relies more on occasional heavy attacks with nothing going on between charge attacks. What about Fallen? Swinging around, slashing heads off necks. Set aside Heavenly Iron for a while. We can get back to it later.

Look at Valkyrie. High damage but slower attacks. Combined with Avenger line you get to play the holy angel with a pretty white dress and wings. Good for you. But why would you use Avenger with Valkyrie when Skolver gives a whole bunch of damage against all families just for using a sword, which Avenger always is, or Vog Cub with more attack speed to compete with Faust? Because Three Rings is too busy designing the next twenty promo cosmetic items to balance the game. Who said that? Anyway, I got some effects to replace the pathetic +2 fiend per part Valkyrie currently offers:

  • +1 damage for Avenger line (for both the 4* Avenger and 5* Divine Avenger)
  • +1 charge time reduction for Avenger line

What if you want to use a different weapon, like a Troika? Would you still get the damage and charge bonuses?
Nurp. Avenger or get the fuzzy napkins out of here.

Why does it give both damage and charge? That seems awfully unfair.
Because it gives nothing to any other weapon. Not even its sibling branch, Faust. Those bonuses only apply to one weapon and its upgrade and nothing else in the whole game.

What if I want different bonuses because I like to whine about everything?

Fine:

  • +2 damage for weapons which inflict element damage
  • -1 damage for weapons which inflict shadow damage

You still have the little family bonus, but the other effect is questionably balanced. Do you know how many element dealing weapons there are?

What do you mean, "bonus to element damage"? What does that do?

It increases the damage of equipped weapons which inflict element damage (Avenger line, elemental Brandish lines, most Alchemers, Vaporizers, etc.) by the same amount as the other types of damage bonuses (~+7%) per point.

Why not just make it a family bonus?

It already has a family bonus. See how effective that is.

Why does it penalize shadow weapons?

How many angels are evil? Besides Satan. If you count him.

This is arguably going to copy Valkyrie, but for each part of Fallen:

  • +1 attack speed for Faust line
  • +1 damage for weapons which inflict shadow damage
  • -2 fiend
  • -1 undead

You could say it combines the two ideas for Valkyrie, but I actually thought of this before Valkyrie. The only reason I poot it after it is because more people care about being "holy" and "good". Also because Fallen likes waiting in line. Scope some of that Valkyrie booty. Kidding. Not really. Who said that?

We definitely want more attack speed for Faust line, but with the current Fallen set it gives a universal bonus. Sure, the recipes for Fallen are in the starting room before doing the Vanaduke mission, but when have missions ever got in my way? All the time. This one time I was trying to get a date with the checkout girl and missions came up and were all "hey baby I heard you like stallions". The weirdest part was what was going on in his pants. Not that I was looking there. They already figured it out, dummy. Shut up, Vernon.

For the penalties it could be changed to -2 or -3 damage against shadow resistant enemies, but that would mean penalizing all weapons against two families. The spell checker for the foorim thinks "undead" is a misspelling of "unread" or "unleaded". Things make sense around here.

Call Heavenly Iron back in the room. What? No, we were not talking about disowning you. Why are you hiding the paperwork behind your back? Shut up, Vernon. Heavenly Iron, sweetie, come here. Sit next to daddy. What do you want for Christmas? A boyfriend? You are so adorable. No, you want better bonuses. Why would armor have relationships? Silly. Why do your descriptions say you have weakness to fire? Honey, you know what we told you about taking drugs. You have to share. Anyway, about your bonuses. Do you like giving +1 fiend and sword damage per part? For the sake of fair effects say we compare you to Skolver. Same bars of defense. Same resistance to one status, though you have curse while Skolver has freeze. You have a lot of shock weakness weighs out status resistances. Alright. Good, very good. Anything else? That means we only have your bonuses to look at. Skolver gives +2 sword damage per part while you only give +1 fiend and sword damage. Honey. Something is wrong here. You are a Shadow Lair armor. You know what? Compare yourself to Snarbolax. Make it fair. Snarbolax has the same defenses down to the damage types. Snarbolax has resistance to two basic statuses, though you still have curse resistance. That means you should be a little more offense based than Snarbolax, right? Snarbolax has +2 sword damage per part. What the liquids? Oh, right. We already went over this earlier. Okay. I can work with this. With a wave of a magic wand and a pink frilly tutu with tights, I will magically create a different set of bonues!

  • +1 attack speed to heavy swords (Sealed and Troika lines; Seerus hammers are excluded)
  • +1 damage to heavy swords
  • +1 fiend

Normally giving +2 for a specific weapon type is considered a huge bonus, but this only applies to two very specific weapon lines. What was that? You want Heavenly Iron to focus on Troikas since the other two Angelic lines already cover Sealed lines? Sure, Sally:

  • +1 damage for Troika line swords
  • +1 charge time reduction for Troika line swords
  • -1 attack speed for Troika line swords

You know how some people like to use Plate lines with Troikas? Tsubasa? You never heard of them? Well, with this set of effects a Troika partnered with Heavenly Iron gets to show those angels and devils how we do it on the mortal plane. While they flop around with their glowing sausages a Heavenly Iron knight with a big hard Troika will ram it down to shut them both up.

Mon, 12/10/2012 - 17:57
#285
Klipik's picture
Klipik
X_X

how long does it take you to write these? Nice idea though.

Mon, 12/10/2012 - 18:30
#286
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

That stuff on Angelic took around eleven minutes.

I usually think about stuff before derping it up. Other times I think while I derp like this.

Anyone else care about balancing any equipment? Anyone?

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 20:07
#287
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Rebalancing the families: Overview

Everything with multiple sections needs an overview here, right? No. I do it because if I immediately jump into a big topic people are going to be lost. For those who were elsewhere the past few days, in a couple threads I mention lack of balance among the families. Beasts are too easy. Lumbers are a little too easy. Things like that. Since this topic includes all families, meaning every individual kind of enemy in each family, each post will have a lot of stuff for only one family. And there are six families. For each tier. Actually, T1 is fine where it is. Focus on T2 and T3. So for this big thing of stuff we are going to rebalance all six families in two tiers for three to ten or so enemies per family. That sure sounds like fun.

In the index and the baby index which will be at the bottom of this post the families are listed in alphabetical order but are not necessarily written in that order. I plan to start with gremlins instead of beast. If you have ideas for rebalancing something like an ability for a specific kind of enemy, speak up. I promise stupid ideas will only be slightly beaten to death. Just a little. Maybe cut off a pinky finger or slap your leg until it goes numb for a couple hours. We can do that later.

Before I shut up with this part I should make one thing clear: this is not part of the T4 stuff. All of this is intended for the existing Clockworks and enemies we already have. None of my weird T4 enemies or abilities are involved with this. However this content can be used instead of the T4 stuff as it has similar ideas. Sort of. They could also all be combined into a giant mess of homicide.

  • Beast
  • Construct
  • Fiend
  • Gremlin
  • Slime/Jelly
  • Undead

Update Comments:

Fiends are up. Why are you reading this when you should be reading about my crazy ideas on making the only threatening family even more difficult?

Tue, 01/01/2013 - 11:56
#288
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Rebalancing the families: Gremlin

New rule for this thread. Whenever I do something that involves all six families, I have to hold all the other times I do the same thing to compare. In this case the T4 stuff. I bring it up while I make the new stuff for the same family, pull one of my eyeballs out of my noggin, and squish it on the side of the screen where the older stuff is to make sure nothing is repeated. I am going to need many spare eyeballs.

Anyway, gremlins. They have their own colony you know. One last thing before we get into this: no special area specific or expansion exclusive enemies. This applies to all families. I should put this in the overview when this post goes up. That means enemies like Deadnaughts, Phantoms, Grimalkins, whatever the liquids this booger is; those kinds of things. Mortafires. Ghostmanes. Most of those enemies are decent as they are anyway.

You know how these posts are going in the index? Well this post has an index of things in itself.

  • Thwacker
    • T2
    • T3
  • Mender
    • T2
    • T3
  • Scorcher
    • T2
    • T3
  • Demo
    • T2
    • T3
  • Knocker
    • T2
    • T3

Thwacker

T2

The current abilities for this thing are being able to use a melee attack followed by a dashing attack, throwing its axe-wrench at Spi- I mean, knights, and apparently runs a little faster than in T1. How adorable. I could just grab one by the throat and flop it around, then put it on my head and transform into a crab and walk sideways.

Before anything involving hats happens, is the T2 Thwacker balanced for a T3 enemy? Is it too easy or hard? All it has over the T1 version besides the generic health, damage, and speed is that extra little dashing ability. Considering the average T2 player, is that dash difficult enough to fight against? Mostly. That means no crazy new ability like the tracking Wolvers used to have compared to what they are now. Whatever it gets here will also be present in the T3 version. I got some options:

  • when the Thwacker attacks within the blast radius of a a bomb placed by a Demo, it automatically detonates
  • the Thwacker gains a weak version of the T3 shield which only covers a third of its perimeter (T3 shield covers half) and breaks when it takes damage equal to 50% of the current health of the Thwacker but regenerates 3% per second
  • the Thwacker can use the normal single melee attack on a construct to 'repair' 10% of its health per hit (hits once every ~5 seconds) but will only do so away from a battle (>5 spaces from any knights)

Thwackers. They do defense stuff.

T3

In addition to whatever the T2 Thwacker got above, the T3 version can get:

  • one of the two other abilities above
  • when the T3 Thwacker dies, its shield drops and may be equipped (and will function the same as it did on the Thwacker) by Scorchers or Demos but will be destroyed once its second wearer is killed
  • T3 Thwackers may destroy their shield in exchange for 10 seconds of invincibility to damage (and statuses) and interruption, 50% resistance to knockback, and be restored to full health after but will no longer have their shield
  • a Thwacker can move its shield from its back to the front; while in this state the Thwacker moves at 50% speed, is unable to attack, and healing received is halved

That second option comes from Mortafires but lets gremlins who play with fire and explosives enjoy the defensive ability. Why not let Menders join in on the fun? In T3 they can already bubble themselves.

Mender

T2

You know, after all the T3 versions of this enemy, the T2 version feels really underwhelming. T1 it heals a single target for a bit, alright. T2 it can do that and make a medical fart, kind of weird but okay. T3 can bubble for invincibility, create area of effect heals, heal in an area of effect, and resurrect petrifi-dead gremlins. Anyone else see the huge gap? These options are basically just taking stuff from the T3 version:

  • resurrects petri-dead gremlins to 50% their natural max health, once they die a second time they may not be resurrected again
  • creates a bubble to protect itself for up to ten seconds or until the shield breaks (~50% health of the Mender for the shield?)
  • can mark a Thwacker, Scorcher, or Demo to give it a regenerating health ability (~5% health regeneration per second) once the Mender dies; may only mark one gremlin
  • can mark a Thwacker, Scorcher, or Demo to give it a second health pill (scaled to tier) when the Mender dies; may mark up to three gremlins

The two marking abilities are inspired by a set of abilities in Wakfu for one class which can mark enemies or allies for effects once the marked target dies, including stealing a portion of their health, stealing different kinds of points, and even taking control of the marked target shortly; all these marks only have effects once the marked target dies.

T3

T3 Menders are pretty good as they currently are. Not perfect, but decent. I still got a couple options:

  • the Mender can resurrect a dead construct to 50% its normal max health
  • the Mender has a 50% chance of resurrecting itself upon defeat but loses its abilities to bubble, create a healing rune, and resurrect
  • the Mender can mark a knight which destroys all health and remedy vials held once the Mender is killed (includes pills of all tiers, like if you were doing a T1-3 full run and were collecting them; only one knight may be marked with this ability at a time)
  • the Mender can mark a knight to reduce their damage by 50% but loses the bubble, rune, and resurrection abilities; the damage penalty is removed once the Mender is killed

You can probably see a pattern at this point. Straying away from "hit harder and faster", focus more on complex features which make the colony of gremlins more like a race than a tribe of savages. Mister Mango.

Scorcher

T2

Are you ready to play with fire? No? Good answer. Playing with fire is bad. Unless you are Pyro. Because you are only spreading happy bubbles and rainbows to your flying diaper baby friends. That sounds oddly normal compared to my own thoughts. Speaking of Pyro:

  • the Scorcher can air blast a knight ~3 spaces away; cooldown of 30 seconds before it can air blast again
  • the Scorcher can use a charge ability (5 seconds to load) which makes it immune to statuses for ten seconds; cooldown of 30 seconds before it can use it again
  • the Scorcher can use a charge ability (5 seconds to load) which makes its flamethrower to destroy incoming projectiles (gun boolits, sword charge projectiles) by attacking them with fire for 15 seconds; cooldown of 30 seconds before it can use it again
  • the Scorcher can attack bombs placed by a gremlin Demo to give it a chance to inflict fire and higher element damage to knights upon detonation

Air blasting cuts pretty close to ripping from TF2. Projectile destruction is very similar to something in this, the second part of which I should just copy-paste into this thread because people only seem to see the cannon part and completely ignore the rest.

T3

Now we can get to the fun stuff. Stuff that sounds as crazy as a fluffy gremlin with a welding mask running around with a fairy wand which snorts out fire while carrying a propane tank on its back:

  • the Scorcher can air blast (again with taking from TF2) projectiles back to the knight who fired it and will deal damage to that knight with 50% of the original damage values once every five seconds at most
  • the Scorcher can ignite the bombs of a Demo which increases fuse speed of placed bombs by +100%, damage by 25%, placement/charge/load speed for their bombs by 25%, and +20% resistance to all statuses
  • the Scorcher can ignite a Thwacker which will allow it to set knights on fire by merely touching them (includes attacks and simply standing next to a knight) for thirty seconds and increase its movement speed by 20%; up to three Thwackers may be ignited at once
  • the Scorcher can ignite the weapons of Thwackers, Demos, and Knockers to give them a chance to inflict fire when used against knights; flaming gremlin weapons inflict 20% more element damage and will only lose the flaming effect once it sets a knight on fire (if a knight has fire resistance and is hit with a flaming weapon, the flaming effect will only wear off if the knight is ignited; it will remain until the weapon inflicts fire); each Scorcher may only have three ignited weapons at a time (if a gremlin with an ignited weapon is killed it will count as no longer being ignited)

To be honest, I would give it all of these. Then ask to be able to play as it. Can you blame me?

Demo

T2

What makes me a g- No one wants to see that reference. Not even myself. Demos are considered by some the most obnoxious gremlins. They have yet to experience Ghostmanes without using bombs. Well, people normally just spam whatever is closest to a bomb without actually using the weapon type, like Pulsars. Pulsar boolits flopping around everywhere. Just use a Voltaic or Agni, it makes decloaking them a lot easier.

Anyway, gremlins with bombs. So many things I could do. To them. Not in a naughty way.

  • the Demo can place up to three landmine bombs with a 1.5 space radius, the landmine has a 1 second fuse time once placed but will automatically detonate when a knight walks over it; the landmine does not have a visible blast radius and the placed bomb becomes a tiny antennae on the floor once active with a small blinking light at the tip
  • the Demo can place up to three remotely activated bombs with a 1.5 space radius which can be manually detonated all at once at any time once placed; remote bombs have a one second fuse following placement before being activatable
  • the Demo can throw one shield breaking bomb (the shield breaking bomb functions the same as the bombs Demos normally place and throw but is visually different, the blast radius is blue instead of red, but will completely destroy your shield if active when the bomb detonates; deals absolutely no damage to the knight if they are not shielding against it) which has a cooldown of 30 seconds

Going to stop there before I use the stuff I have in store for the T3 one.

T3

If you think my ideas for this particular gremlin have anything to do with my own play style you would be absolutely correct.

  • the Demo can place a Vaporizer-esque bomb which may inflict shock or fire with a radius of 2 spaces, but cloud duration of 10 seconds; cooldown of 30 seconds after the cloud dissipates
  • the Demo can place a bomb which behaves like a Blast Jelly (the initial explosion is followed by blobs bouncing around, which explode shortly after appearing)
  • the Demo can place a bomb with a three second fuse time and 1.5 space radius, but does not detonate at the end of the fuse; instead the first gremlin attack which occurs within the radius after the fuse is completed decides what the bomb does:
    • a melee attack (Thwacker, Knocker) makes the bomb deal +25% damage and the bomb has a 3 space radius
    • a projectile attack (Mender, Scorcher) makes the bomb inflict poison (if it was activated by a Mender) or fire (if it was activated by a Scorcher) and the bomb has a 2 space radius
  • the Demo can attach a bomb to a knight (may only occur while the Demo is next to the target knight) which detonates for ~150% normal bomb damage in five seconds unless another knight breaks the bomb off (only one hit, similar to thawing freeze) which destroys the attached bomb
  • any of the T2 abilities above

That ought to be enough options for now. What was that? You still want more? Oka-

Knocker

T2

Oh boy. Gosh golly gee. Tiddly winks. These things. Do they even get any new abilities in higher tiers? What the li- You know what? I am not going to go the whole way with completely redesigning these guys. Even if I should. And want to. You saw all that stuff I had for Demos. Imagine that but double. Knocker changes. Right there. But with different content.

  • two Knockers can "high five" to become immune to attack interruption or knockback for 15 seconds; cooldown of 30 seconds
  • a Knocker can tag a Thwacker to transfer some of its damage when it dies; the Thwacker gains +20% damage for 45 seconds once the Knocker who tagged it dies
  • a Knocker can tag a Mender to sacrifice its own health when the Mender is damaged; up to three Knockers may give up their health to protect a single Mender at a time

T3

You know how hard it is not to flip the table and redesign these things? As hard as it is to not exit this post, edit the whole thing out of the thread, and play a different game to cool down. Then come back and be frustrated with myself for giving up.

  • multiple (2+) Knockers can "rally" (they gather together) to gain +10% movement speed per participating Knocker for 3 seconds per participating Knocker
  • multiple (2+) Knockers can "rally" to gain +5% max health and +3% damage per participating Knocker until they die
  • a Knocker can transfer a portion of its damage (20%) to a Thwacker, Scorcher, Demo, or Mender; the transferred bonus is removed when the Knocker is killed or after 75 seconds, up to three Knockers may transfer to the same target gremlin
  • a Knocker can transfer a portion of its defense
  • (25%) to a Thwacker, Scorcher, Demo, or Mender; the transferred bonus is removed when the Knocker is killed or after 75 seconds, up to two Knockers may transfer to the same target gremlin

Sat, 12/22/2012 - 21:18
#289
Doctorspacebar's picture
Doctorspacebar
HIIIII!

I go off to get Winter tokens and come back to find these epic win revamped Gremlins. Very nice. Have some Kirby: Mass Attack BGM. It's from a tank level. Tanks are powerful, and they move far. Tanks are the best!

Right, the Thwackers. So your options for the T2 are either a weak version of the T3 back shield, blowing up Demo bombs, or the ability to fix robots. All of these are quite viable; the back shield will prepare players a little for T3 while being a useful enough feature (for the Gremlin) in itself, the blowing-up-Demo's bombs will make the Thwacker/Demo combos you see in Decon Zones that much more deadly (use the key IF YOU DARE), and the "Engineer" IS A SPY, ah, I mean, the "Engineer" ability will be a nasty surprise for anyone who tries to kite Gremlins and Mechas around.

T3 Thwackers either get an "Ubercharge" in exchange for their shield, or hand off their shield to a buddy when they die. Honestly, I don't know which one would be better.

T2 Menders HAVE NO IDEAAAAA! A weaker Bubble Shield, a weaker Revive, and two beneficial effects that occur when the Mender dies. Most people try to kill the Mender first; these Marks will encourage the use of Poison. I don't see Poison very much. Good work.

T3 Menders... I'm not so sure about ALL the Health Capsules, considering the likelihood of someone killing the Mender by accident (could happen a lot with bombers) or because they're a troll (happens a lot with trolls). They could, of course, Curse the Health Caps, remove them only if YOUR attack kills the Mender (If solo, you're probably screwed, unless the Caps aren't destroyed if they're dropped), or remove only one Capsule.

The others are just annoying enough. Self-revive? Argh. Suppressing your attack power? Urgh. Repairing Mecha Knights and Rocket Puppies? Shoot me. The Weaken mark might need to have a limit; reducing your attack power to 50% is one thing, but reducing it to 0% is a whole other ball game. Alternatively, a second mark could simply take you down to 50% of the 50% you had... I've never been so glad to have an Ash of Agni.

T2 Scorchers. Airblast of course, always fun, especially around spikes and elemental grates (oh snap, C42). Projectile destruction is funny and oh hey it's my Hand Cannon! Those Wands in the same thread were so overpowered... but I digress. Immunity to statuses, or bomb igniting. All of these work.

T3 Scorchers. Projectile deflecting plus that Projectile Destruction ability will make Scorchers THE anti-gunner, and God forbid someone uses a Polaris (it's bad enough when you don't spend your Mist in the level you get zapped with it). Igniting Demo bombs is, again, always fun. Igniting Thwackers- not their weapons, but the Gremlins themselves- is pretty funny, the more so because of swordies' reactions. Plus, if Thwackers get their "Ubercharge" ability... INVINCIBLE FLAMING AVATAR OF BURNING DEATH! GWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ahahahaha! ...hmm. And lighting up EVERYONE'S weapons... what if they use this ability on a Knocker that already inflicts Fire? Does it improve the damage of the Fire?

I've found DBB works well enough for Demos, and is the optimal choice when surrounded by freaking Devilites and freaking Greavers and FREAKING ANNOYING KLEPTOLISKS RUINING EVERYTHING... ahem. T2 Demos. Landmines are designed to make you paranoid around big bomb fields that result from your average Demo... good. Remote bombs... probably dangerous in narrow passages if they land between you and the Demo, and the Demo fires them whenever someone walks over them. And the Shield Buster is something innovative; a weapon that encourages you to run rather than block! Getting trapped in a minefield with Shield Busters will almost be as bad as being surrounded by ******* GREAVERS (insert page long rant with much swearing about Greavers).

T3 Demoman is credit to team. The Shock/Fire vapors make Demos effective Oiler/Quicksilver buddies (and I assume they won't ignite Ice Cubes) as well as putting one to two more statuses in every Decon Zone (though, granted, the whole thing is stopped by Grey Feather or Divine... hey, another underused item gets love from this). Clusterbombs, lots of "sprosions", always good. Super Bombs that require a buddy to activate... I like, though, how does a Mender activate them? Heal an enemy on it? Heal an enemy ACROSS from it? Plop a Healing Rune on it? And of course, the "Why-am-I-ticking-OH-WAIT-****" encourages teamwork... OR ELSE. If no one has a sword, you'd better have a good shield... suddenly those big mobs of Demos seem much scarier.

T2 Knockers... hmm. The first ability can cause a group of Knockers to become unstoppable forces; they're gonna hit in front of them and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Buff on death... works. Protect Mender with own health... also works, arguably better.

T3 Knockers... wonder why tracking isn't on this list? Anyway, that mob of six over-caffeinated unmovable Knockers just became a real danger. A swarming enemy that can really swarm you. And then there's the "Morale Boosts"; they both encourage you to kill the Knockers first, which is really nasty combined with that Buff-on-Death effect. Kill the Knockers first? You fight a 120% boosted Angry Revenge Thwacker. Kill the Thwacker first? Good luck, it's at 160% damage and will smash your face in with a single strike, especially after the Demo is done smashing your shield with his own 160% boosted Shield Buster bomb.

Another idea for Knockers... well, they all have Status effects, unlike most Gremlins. Perhaps they can give a Status effect boost to their fellow Gremlins. (For example, Gremlin Jumpers (the Shock variant) electrifying a hammer. Or a Gremlin Cooler creating an Ice/Fire flamethrower, even though it might be counterproductive, IT'S FOR SCIENCE.) This is much like the Scorcher idea, with standard Knockers adding Stun. More Knockers might improve the status effect's duration, magnitude, chance to activate, et cetera.

Overall, very nice!

Sat, 12/22/2012 - 22:26
#290
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Oh hi Mark

How is your granola? That made no sense.

Anyway, yes. Gremlin stuff.

For the T3 Mender the pill destruction thing can be replaced with preventing the marked knight from healing, like poison, and gaining anything which would give health: Vitapods, pills, remedies (statuses can deal damage, remedy cures it), and hearts from drops and on pads. But without the defense and attack loss. It could also just do what you said with making whoever kills it lose pills. Honestly, I would only give it one of those abilities and move on. The others are far worse than the medic who already has a lot of things it can do. By the way, that 50% damage penalty can only be applied once per knight. No medic stacking for negative damage. Like -100% damage because four medics happened. When you attack it heals the same amount you would hit without any of this marking nonsense.

With the T3 Scorchers the flaming weapons effect is more for the damage bonus. If a Knocker has any status affiliation it changes to fire while its weapon is on fire but that wears off to whatever it was normally when the effect burns out. Get it? Burns out? Snort. Anyway, no; it does not increase the rate of the status on the Knocker. It just makes its little glowing maracas fiery and hit a little harder.

That one effect where a Mender activates a T3 Demo bomb happens when it stands in the radius of the bomb and uses any kind of healing ability. To me healing still counts as an action like an attack, but with healing instead of hurting. The healing is not quite as rewarding as the hurting.

Knockers in both tiers are like cannon fodder, right? They may as well be useful for getting killed aside from being thrown under the knight driven bus. Knights driving buses without licenses or any driving education. Who thought that was a good idea? Me. For the rallying things I was thinking about whether the bonus would decay when participating Knockers die. If ten of them get together and do the health and damage one they each get +50% max health (which is fully healed, it does not simply increase how much max health they have like Vitapods do for us) and +30% damage, but one dies, does it stay +50% health and +30% damage until all ten are dead or does it drop down to +45% health and +27% damage because one of them died? It starts with an army. Does it become weaker the less there are, or do they just keep going to the last man? Gremlin?

Knockers giving other gremlins status stuff? Seems like that could open up a whole new can of beans. I hope that can has the rest of the chili in it. Getting hungry.

Do any of the abilities seem overpowered if they were the only one added besides the T3 Mender pill destruction? Most of these are more about making them work like an organized force by helping each other instead of just throwing a bunch of fast spammy walrus shenanigans. Replace those walruses with a normal animal. Like a sheep. A flying sheep. A flying sheep which is made of clouds. Did I say normal? I meant silly.

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 09:19
#291
Klipik's picture
Klipik
yes to all the gremlin stuff

Honestly, I read those changes all as put all of these in!, not "put one for each". And I think it's completely fine if you give ALL the gremlins ALL their abilities. Also, air blasting also happens in Magicka. And would you be so kind as to tell us what you had in mind for reinventing Knockers?

EDIT: And can you please teach me how to use tags to link to different parts of a post?

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 10:28
#292
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

Not all of them for every single one. Like with the T2 Scorcher, the temporary status immunity. If it has that and the projectile destruction thing at the same time it would be overp- Wait a solid, that could work. How about all the ways Knockers can transfer stuff when they d- No, that still could work. You have to admit giving the T3 Mender all of those things would be overpowered.

To do the (Schatten)tag stuff you have to do the hokey pokey then see this. Remember, a href is the one you click and a id is where it sends you. I had them backwards for a few minutes after I poot that post up. Derp.

Sun, 12/30/2012 - 11:53
#293
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Rebalancing the families: Construct

December 23, 2012

Beep boop, son. Beep. Boop.

You know how the gremlin stuff involved a lot of teamwork bonus sharing? Expect more of that. Why? Think about it; if us knights are better at offense than defense, why not have the enemies be backwards? Give them a bunch of defense to counter our offense. What was that? Why not give them offense instead? Devilites. Now make their attacks prepare and fire twice as fast. How does that sound?

  • Gun Puppy
    • T2
    • T3
  • Lumber
    • T2
    • T3
  • Mecha Knight
    • T2
    • T3
  • Retrode
    • T2
    • T3
  • Scuttlebot
    • T2
    • T3

Gun Puppy

T2

Robot dog turrets. Not just one kind, but three: flamethrowing, rocket snorting, and boolits. Since those first two are alright where they currently are we will be focusing on the one that shoots boolits. What kind of crazy things does this turret do? Shoots three boolits in a cone. And nothing else. Is that enough? Think of all those times you opened one of those extra rooms to a turret setup in T2 and you were in the middle of a dozen turrets each firing three pointy dots all at once. I think their attack part is covered. What about defense? What easily counters a turret? Guns. What do guns do? Shoot boolits. Looks like guns and the turrets have something in common. You know what else counters turrets? Getting in close melee range with a sword and beating the liquids out of it. How many people do that instead of spamming Brandish/Sealed charge attacks? People who are not cowards. That thing in your hand is a sword, not a pixie wand. If you want to wear a frilly tutu and frolic around in tights do that elsewhere.

  • "Pack Protection": a Gun Puppy emits a radiating signal (goes out in all directions like an expanding bomb blast radius) up to three cells away and gains +10% element defense (or +1 bar, since defense is apparently additive) per turret; those turrets can then do the same and 'connect' to other turrets; maximum of +30%/+3 bars element defense and +3% max health per turret (only applies to the bullet turrets, does not 'connect' with flamethrowing or rocket firing turrets);once a connected turret is killed its contribution to the bonus is removed for all other connected turrets
  • the Gun Puppy can use a similar radial knockback ability of T2+ Menders (pushes knights within 2 spaces of the turret 3 spaces away) but does not heal; 30 second cooldown
  • the Gun Puppy can use a charge attack which fires a beam (1 space wide) which lasts three seconds and travels infinitely in one direction or until it hits an impassible object (walls, raised gates, anything which may not be walked on/through), cooldown of 30 seconds, may not use other attacks or move/spin while using this attack

T3

What else can we do with turrets. Oh, I know:

  • if two Gun Puppies are at least five spaces away from any untravellable area/object (walls, indestructible blocks, edge of the map, spawn spots for pots/enemies) and are within five spaces of each other they can form an impassable wall between them which is only destroyed once one of the Gun Puppies is destroyed; may not be within three spaces of another connected pair of Gun Puppies, only bullet Gun Puppies may create walls (no flamethrowing or rocket firing ones)
  • a Gun Puppy may disable itself (does not attack) to double the attack speed of another Gun Puppy within five spaces
  • a Gun Puppy may activate a shield around itself (1.5 space radius) which destroys projectiles (gun bullets, Sealed/Brandish line charge projectiles; does not protect other enemies) which attempt to attack from the outside but has no effect on what goes on inside itself; lasts 10 seconds, cooldown of 30 seconds, may not be using within three spaces of another shielding Gun Puppy
  • any of the T2 abilities above

Lumber

T2

These stupid things. For whatever reason, when I was new to the game and did T1 runs with random people, they would stand right in front of these things and get smacked on the head while I would be at their backs carving my initials. They would then complain about getting hit and how I failed to help them by taking the hit for them even though their only attack has area of effect and would have hurt us both. Genius faec.

  • the Lumber, after having already attacked, can swing its arm in the complete opposite direction of where its first swing went; it does not have to use this second attack and will only do so if a knight is behind them
  • the Lumber can 'take root', making it completely immobile, gain +50%/+5 bars element and shadow damage, but unable to turn; it can stay in this state for up to ten seconds (it can exit this state at any point) and may still attack while rooted
  • the Lumber can summon a squirrel (only once) which will run to a knight (~150% average knight speed), jump on them, and randomly change which direction the knight is facing; the squirrel can be knocked off by any attack on the knight (similar to thawing freeze) with two hits (if the knight with a squirrel on their head uses a bomb the blast will count as a hit if the explosion includes the knight in its area of effect) or will retreat after ten seconds; the squirrel does not force the knight to move, it only affects which direction the knight is facing, only one squirrel may attack the same knight at a time

That last one was inspired by a tree based enemy in Wakfu which can summon a spider that gets in the way of players, attacks, and inflicts a damage penalty. The second ability was inspired by the same tree enemies but does not include healing itself for ~20% of its max health.

T3

How can I top what T2 Lumbers just got? By building on it:

  • when the Lumber uses its second-backlash attack it has 120% the area of effect and damage of the first attack
  • when the Lumber takes root it becomes completely immobile, gains +50%/+5 bars element and shadow defense, is unable to turn (it can exit this state at any point), may attack only using the existing single swing, and can use a single root to attempt to 'knot' the feet of a moving knight within five spaces once the Lumber has taken root; the trapped player is unable to move but has full turning, attacking, and shielding abilities and will only remain trapped for up to three seconds at a time; the Lumber may only knot a knight once every fifteen seconds
  • the Lumber can summon the same squirrel as the T2 version, but it also inflicts an offense penalty to the knight it attacks (-3 universal damage, -1 universal attack speed for 10 seconds); only one of this kind of penalty may apply to the same knight at a time

Crazy trees. Tree robots.

Mecha Knight

T2

You know, there was a thread in general not too long ago about what people think the most difficult enemies are. Apparently these shield bearing robots are worse than Devilites. Why? Because they shield against idiotic Brandish/Sealed charge spam? Try using the basic swing pattern of any heavy sword, or the basic swing pattern of any sword except Winmillion. As long as you can shield before they slash you back these barrelheads are easy enough.

  • while the Mecha is shielding, each projectile which hits its shield increases its movement speed by +10% per projectile (up to +80% movement speed at a time), each movement speed bonus (every +10%) lasts 15 seconds
  • when the Mecha is defeated it drops it shield which can be retrieved by a gremlin who wears it as a hat and grants them +20%/+2 bars pierce defense until they are defeated, the shield will not drop again, no more than one shield-hat may be active per gremlin
  • "Overdrive": the Mecha takes 3 seconds to rev its engines and runs at 200% movement speed but is unable to turn, attack, or shield for 5 seconds; cooldown of 30 seconds, immune to knockback while in effect

Exhaust pipes come out of their backs. Does no one else want to see them do something crazy?

T3

I keep playing my best cards in T2 without thinking of stuff for T3. More repeats:

  • while the Mecha is shielding, each projectile which hits its shield increases its movement speed by +10% and attack speed by +5% (up to +80% movement speed, +40% attack speed at a time), each activation of this effect lasting 15 seconds
  • when the Mecha is defeated it drops it shield which can be retrieved by a gremlin who wears it as a hat and grants them +30%/+3 bars pierce defense until they are defeated, the shield will not drop again, no more than one shield-hat may be active per gremlin
  • "Balls to the wall (this is a pilot phrase, not an innuendo)": the Mecha takes 3 seconds to charge a dash where it runs at 250% movement speed but is unable to turn, attack, or shield for 5 seconds; cooldown of 30 seconds, immune to knockback while in effect, if the Mecha is affiliated with a status it has a high chance to inflict that status to any knight whom it dashes through/into

Retrode

T2

Zombie g- Robots? This is weird. When I first saw these things I thought they were zombie robots or made of recycled parts. Some crazy gremlin was sitting in their lab one late night, stared in a big box of random metal pieces, and welded them together. Retrode was born.

  • the Retrode can mark a knight by successfully landing a melee attack on the target, the mark prevents that knight from picking up vials for fifteen seconds; up to two knights may be marked with this ability at a time
  • the Retrode can mark a knight by successfully landing a melee attack on the target, the mark gives a penalty of -2 sword damage, -2 gun attack speed, or -2 bomb charge time reduction randomly for 20 seconds; up to two knights may be marked with this ability at a time
  • a Retrode may consume another Retrode to add its current health to itself and gain +20% damage and attack speed for the rest of its life; up to four Retrodes may be consumed by a single Retrode
  • once the Retrode is killed it sets a "Retrode armor fragment", which may be activated by a construct by walking over it (unlike the Mecha version, gremlins may not retrieve it) which gives -10% movement speed, +15% damage, and +20%/+2 bars of element and shadow defense

I wonder what would happen if you took a bunch of Retrodes and combined them into a really big robot. Would it be Retrozoid? Megarode?

T3

I think I may be having too much fun with this. Quick, someone call the fun police.

  • the Retrode can mark a knight by successfully hitting the target with its beam attack, the mark prevents that knight from using sword and gun charge attacks and slows bomb fuses by 30% for fifteen seconds
  • the Retrode can dismantle itself to become "Retrode scrap", which can be picked up by gremlins and constructs and used on either to gain +30%/+3 bars of defense for shadow (if the wearer is a construct) or pierce (if the wearer is a gremlin) until the wearer dies; up to two "Retrode scrap" per character
  • any of the T2 Retrode abilities above

Recycling is good for the planet. Of Cradle. Where us knights are murdering the natives for our own gain.

Scuttlebot

T2

These little robots are pretty humble. They relate to Knockers in the gremlin family, acting as cannon fodder and getting in the way while being able to cough up some boolits in our faces when they get close. You know what that means. Time to wear pants. That has nothing to do with anything.

  • a gremlin may ride on the Scuttlebot; all attacks on the mounted gremlin are redirected to the Scuttlebot who will take only 70% of the incoming damage, but the gremlin-Scuttlebot pair will only move at 60% speed
  • the Scuttlebot may collapse onto the floor, deactivated, and become 75% immune to all damage and statuses, 75% resistant to knockback, but unable to move or attack at all (it basically becomes a rock) and will remain in this state for exactly ten seconds, after which it will remain immobile and unresponsive for two seconds but lose the defenses it had from deactivating before returning to normal behavior
  • a gremlin Demo may place a bomb on the Scuttlebot (two second preparation, the two must be standing next to each other) which will chase a knight and attempt to kamikaze (deals 300% normal Demo bomb damage in a 2 space radius)

What the li- I did it again. Gave all the good stuff to T2.

T3

Lowered some of the T2 stuff, better versions for T3:

  • a gremlin may ride on a Scuttlebot, all damage taken is redirected to the Scuttlebot who will only take 70% of the damage (the other 30% is not dealt to the gremlin or Scuttlebot, it disappears because one is sitting on the other and science happens) but the gremlin-Scuttlebot pair will only move at 70% speed
  • the Scuttlebot may collapse on the floor, deactivated, and become 90% immune to all damage and statuses, 80% resistant to knockback, but unable to move or attack at all and will remain in this state for exactly ten seconds, after which it will remain immobile and unresponsive for two seconds but lose the defenses it previously gained before returning to normal behavior
  • a gremlin Demo may place a bomb on the Scuttlebot (two second preparation, the two must be standing next to each other) which will chase a knight and attempt to kamikaze (deals 350% normal Demo bomb damage in a 2 space radius, the Scuttlebot gains +25% movement speed while this ability is in effect)

Crazy robots. With fluffy bunny-people riding them around. And becoming rocks. Scuttlebots are supposed to be robot replications of Chromalisks, right? I should have done something with invisibility. Nurp. That would get in the way later when I do beast family.

December 26, 2012

Additions and changes are made in this text.

Subtractions are moved below:

  • when the Mecha dies it drops "Mecha armor fragment" which gives the first construct or gremlin who steps on it +15%/+1.5 bars element defense for 30 seconds or until the enemy dies (up to +60%/+6 bars element defense at a time); the defense bonus item will not drop again, the object may be walked over and will not block movement, projectile paths, or explosion radii
  • when the Mecha dies it drops "Mecha armor fragment" which gives the first construct or gremlin who steps on it +20%/+2 bars element defense for 30 seconds or until the wearer dies (up to +80%/+8 bars element defense at a time); the defense item will not drop again, the object may be walked over and will not block movement, projectile paths, or explosion radii

Multiplications a- Wait a solid, that makes no sense.

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 17:04
#294
Doctorspacebar's picture
Doctorspacebar

Yikes. Buffed Gun Puppies. That Bullet Hell Danger Room with all the Gun Puppies suddenly got a lot scarier.

The T2 boosts include an Elemental Defense buff. Hope you brought your Normal or Shadow damage to that Construct level, or that clockworks level with a danger room. Polaris won't be as effective against a group of Puppies. ...I like it.

Alternatively, a Knockback Pulse. Hmm. Works. Encourages guns (and bombs, I guess...) against the annoying little things. Okay. Or, the laser attack... this makes the idea of a Bullet Hell Danger Room even scarier, but then again, the Laser might even be easier to dodge than the five bullet spread. Or it might just limit what room I have to dodge those bullets and that **** rocket. That works, too.

T3... one Gun Puppy can turn off to give another Rapid-Fire Mode. Okay. I'd personally add the Anti-Projectile shield, especially if it comes with the Knockback Pulse (rendering Bombs the best option, of all things), but the Network Wall also works. Those 8-Puppy Arenas suddenly get much more interesting; you can only hope the Puppies don't spawn by the walls, or anyone outside the Network wall is in for a bruising. All in all, good ideas, though I'd say Gun Puppies work well enough as boolit-spammers without a buff. (Heck, the one I find easiest is the Red Rover... then again, it's a great Oiler buddy.)

Anyway, Lumbers. We need a boss Lumber... I was working on something with one. I won't say anything about it yet, except that it involves split Piercing/Elemental ice picks. But I digress; the options you give, for both T2 and T3, are the Distraction, Root, or Backhand.

Distraction is just plain funny, and also gives Bombers some more love. It works.

Root is good for area denial and for giving the Lumber some extra defense. If certain areas are flagged for Lumbers to use Root, this might make some tough fights involving Lumbers, a healer, and those Shield-breaking Fiery-Vaporizing Demos. The T3 "pin" effect could be devastating in groups of many Lumbers, or really any time the Lumber isn't alone.

And Backhand... an extra hit, enough said.

Another idea I had was a Spin Attack. Your standard fare, the Lumber moves it arm back, then spins, whacking anything with its arm. One idea for a T3 Lumber would be to make MULTIPLE spin attacks, kind of like Wind Waker's Hurricane Spin. Except, with a club. Arm. Club arm.

Now, the Meta, ah, Mecha Knights. These guys are already pretty dangerous; you step in their kill zone and they WILL hit you, especially if you've got a broken shield, and then they will tell you to come back when you can put up a fight. Let's see what you've proposed.

Shield absorbs projectiles and turn them into movement speed? Hmm, makes you have to be more careful when gunning Mechas. Which is good.

The Mecha Armor Fragment. Buffs the guy that picks 'em up. Weren't going to use Elemental attacks on Gremlins anyway, so you might want to add Shadow defense to that.

What's the point of the Overdrive dash? Does it cause damage by walking into you with Overdrive or does it just use Overdrive to run away? Either way, it has tactical use.

Another idea for a Mecha Knight is to give it a second weapon. It could be a heavier or lighter sword (Mecha Knight with a Suda, or a Volt Knight with THE THUNDER), a gun (so we could finally meet the Venom Driver we've been waiting for... or maybe not, but still), or a bomb (maybe a Status vapor that it lays when a Knight comes in close). Either way, victory is their destiny.

Moving on... Retrodes. Those marks aren't really easy to apply, considering Retrode melee attacks don't track. I prefer the Mighty Morphing Power Retrode... go go Power Retrodes! A +180% Retrode would be fun to fight, and adding AI that has the Retrode prefer to consume another Retrode when nearly dead would be a great way to irritate players. Or the Retrode Fragment, which, in high enough numbers, turns anything into a super tank, including that 160% Attack Thwacker a few posts ago. I like it.

Adding Disable to the Beam (I call it Disable) is a bit better, considering Retrodes like to spam that Beam enough to where it's easier to get hit by it. Combine with Poison or Shock (STUPID SHOCK RUINING EVERYTHING) and Retrodes are now scary. However, Retrode Scrap doesn't strike fear into me. In fact, it makes me laugh. The Retrode wastes itself so my non-Super-effective special damage does less? Ha, that's what Nitronome is for! You're going to need some more general-purpose uses if Retrodes get Retrode Scrap.

Another idea is to simply give the Retrodes a different attack. Instead of a straight beam, a sweeping beam in front of them that creates a wall of sprosions would work well against swordsmen.

Finally, the Scuttlebots. Two of them turn the Scuttlebots into great Gremlin buddies. The kamikaze bot... how large is the explosion? It'd need to be pretty good if the Bot's going to die afterward. The Scuttlebot Cavalry idea is hilarious and probably effective- it's my personal favorite.

Alternatively, there's turtle mode; probably effective as a distraction, good for getting in the way in that Bullet Hell danger room (Scuttles appear in there). Again, flagging certain points to do this could make for some tough fights.

Can't wait for the next one. Will it be Beast? Slime? Undead? Or Fiend? (Although Fiends are already tough enough...)

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 18:12
#295
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
They told Lumbers they could be anything

But they were debating whether they wanted to be trees or robots, so a compromise was made. The parents were not pleased.

A boss Lumber? I remember trying to get other people to make threads for that many times. Hope to see that happen.

For the squirrel shenanigan on Lumbers it was definitely aimed at promoting bombers. With guns and swords you can still try to fight or just wait it out, since you can run away, but with bombs you lose nothing from being spun around randomly. Tactical advantage. Tactical demolitionists. Intelligence is rewarded. Players learn to play smarter and not spammier. All thanks to squirrels.

Spinning Lumbers would be hilarious. I can imagine a Lumber raising its massive arm to squish a tiny T1 knight, then suddenly wearing a pink ballerina tutu and spinning under a spotlight then collapsing on its face after.

Funny thing about Mechas and their shields. You know how Brandish line charge attacks make explosions? You obviously know this, but some people think that automatically means the explosions are treated like mini-bombs by the AI. It knows. It treats them like projectiles. You know what would be really evil to add to that shield projectile absorption thing? Any combo attack (using more than one round in a gun clip, potential multiple impacts from sword projectiles), as long as at least one of the projectiles hits the shield, all the other projectiles also count as having hit their shield. Imagine four Brandish spammers against even one of these things. If I ever make a game that will probably be somewhere in the mix. A huge bowl full of cookie dough and crazily pumped up robots of death.

Maybe a combination of pierce and shadow defense for gremlins that pick up a Mecha corpse. With some status resistances? Freeze? Whatever theme the Mecha was? When I was writing that I was thinking that knights could force a gremlin to take it so the buff is consumed before something that can be threatening gets it, so you have to think a little more, but with all this other stuff going on it might get too crazy.

Overdrive is for situations where a Trojan would charge but more focused on a fleeing target than whatever stands still for two seconds. A lot of people like to spam Pulsars/Brandishes/Avengers mindlessly, so after the Mecha eats up those projectiles in its shield for +80% movement speed and +40% attack speed, then they can boost for double that 180% movement speed and get right in the face of the spammer. Oh hi Mark, how is your death. Do Mechas ever run away from knights? If they did they could also use the dash to fly out of the fray. I wonder how a fully charged shield combined with the dash would work against a Graviton suction. Would it fly out or would there be friction?

Mechas are pretty well set with their weapons. They can already do some funky stuff with their sword, and now their shield has a whole new deck of cards. They can also dash. A robot with defense is now very threatening against spammy obnoxious bunnies that roll around and ooze projectiles from their nostrils.

Disable? Is that the one where it prevents vial use or retrieval? Or the sword and gun charge prevention and bomb fuse slowing? That sounds really threatening now that I type that again. Threatening to sword and gun charge reliant people. Bomb fuse loss is still bad, but not as bad as what the other weapons get; just another reason to go for a tactical advantage instead of risking the loss. If you meant the second one, having it guaranteed to happen seems overpowered. You know what? That should be a status. Disable. Unlike the other statuses but similar to curse, it never shows up as a stratum theme, but it can be inflicted by Retrodes and maybe some special enemies. So if we give Retrodes this status and make it possible from the face laser, and it guarantees affliction if it successfully hits you, that would mean...people have to play smarter and not spammier. I was about to say only let it inflict the status 50% of the time but having it guaranteed to happen actually sounds great. Oh, and making the scrap give a defense which the enemy is already neutral to making you want to use a normal damage weapon; now normal damage weapons are more important. I am on a roll with this section of stuff. Building bridges out of chewed gum. Walking on those bridges without shoes on. I hope the gum dries before I do that.

You mean like a spin attack but with lasers? Oh, I know. When a Retrode does the cannibal thing and eats at least two other Retrodes, its laser fires wider (~2 spaces) and fires further (+~2 spaces). It also has more health, damage, and attack speed. Thought you would ignore those few Retrodes and rush? Now it meets you before you get to the elevator and you trapped yourself in a locked battlement room with it and a few more Retrodes. Now you have to fight it. Robot zombies are weird. Anyway, a new attack. For the weird robot zombies. Solids. I want to make their melee attack faster or give them some kind of alternative ranged attack but I feel tapped out for now. How about it can charge its face laser attack so it bounces off surfaces and knights and deals more damage with every ricochet? Not random bouncing like Alchemers, I mean it goes by the angles and everything. That would get complicated pretty fast but would make for a great light show.

Skuttlkaze (derp) explosion radii would be around 3 spaces and it would detonate as soon as it gets around one or two spaces of a knight. The detonation does not have to wait for a fuse or any delay, it just runs up to you and explodes. I feel like it should do more damage or instead of killing the Scuttlebot it puts it in disabled mode when the bomb detonates and it sits there for ten seconds. That way it can be loaded up again and sent to blow us up some more.

You have as much idea of what is going to come next as I do right now. Before writing these I think about what kind of weird stuff I could give random enemies, like a unicorn horn for Trojans, then that somehow becomes stuff for the other enemies in the same family. Then I sit down and smash my face on the keyboard and post it. It sounds less painful than it is.

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 19:07
#296
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
meh

I only commented on the things that I thought needed changing:

Gun Puppy
-Infinite is too far for the beam attack, even if it can only start within targeting range. Maybe 11 or 12 spaces?
-Disable/buff ability should not be permanent. The casting Puppy should turn towards the target Puppy and emit a beam of "power" that buffs the target Puppy. The ability would last until the casting Puppy is destroyed. The casting Puppy would not be able to attack during this time.
-Shield should be breakable. Maybe 2x or 3x the strength of a Knight's shield. I think it would be cool if it reflected projectiles, but I'm not sure how balanced that would be. Also, how would that work against bombs? Does the bomb have to be placed inside the shield?
-change elemental defense buff to normal defense, or all-around defense. canceling out weakness just does't make sense.

Lumber
-replace the "swing behind itself" with "spin around and deal damage and knockback to everything around it in a two space radius".That just makes more sense. I'm not sure if this would ever happen though, just because it would make the amount of time they were vulnerable too short.
-Should be able to turn while rooted. (only T3?)
-I don't get the point of the squirrel.

Mecha Knight

-Again, shield should be breakable. Maybe 2x or 3x the strength of a Knight's shield.
-Mecha Armor Fragments should increase piercing defense, not elemental. Why would a monster that is weak to piercing damage drop armor that is resistant to elemental damage?
-Overdrive is too much like a Trojan charge. Reduce movement speeds to 150% and 200%, but allow the mecha knight to turn. And of course, add extra smoke coming out of those exhaust pipes. Maybe some roller skates, too. Or a rocket engine, like the Striker Pack.
-T3: Releases bombs/bullets when beginning "Balls to the walls".

I don't like any of the T2 Retrode abilities. The two marks don't fit with the theme of "robot zombie", the armor fragment is too similar to the new mecha knights, and the consuming other Retrodes is too similar to Lichens.

Scuttlebot
-Yes to the riding, but only if scuttlebots can also be spawned alone.
-Change 100% dmg resistance and 50-70% knockback to 70-90% dmg resistance and 95% knockback. Make it more like this.
-Move Kamikaze attack to only T3. Also, I don't know if I've ever seen a Scuttlebot and a Demo in the same place…

Overall, these are all cool, but I liked the gremlin ideas better.

~Klipik's alt

Sun, 12/23/2012 - 20:10
#297
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

A lot of people seem to be using alternate accounts these days. Like Hex and his eleven dwarves.

With turrets having the beam go infinitely is still stopped by walls and indestructible blocks. It only attacks when a knight alerts it by coming within five or six spaces and it forgets about you in about ten. Unless someone near it coincidentally aims it towards you way off in the distance but without anything blocking its laser that would be too hilarious of a situation to pass up on. I should have mentioned for the defense stacking it loses gained bonuses when a connected turret dies, so if you have three linked and all sharing a +30%/+3 bars element defense bonus then someone comes along and snorts up one of them the bonus drops to +20%/+2 bars. The shield only lasts ten seconds and only affects projectiles (does not include anything which is not a projectile, like sword basic swings and bomb explosions, and knights can enter the shield and will be able to attack with their projectiles to damage the turret from inside the bubble). Having their defense buff counter the damage type they are weak to makes players either focus on taking down turrets first to stop them from linking or bringing a variety of weapons.

Having Lumbers spin would be silly. The doctor already mentioned it. Turning while rooted is alright for T3 but then they may as well always be rooted. Maybe have them turn slightly slower than their normal slow turning, not that anyone would notice the difference. The squirrel or whatever inhabitant squats in/on the Lumber at night acts as interference and can severely mess with whoever it jumps on. It limits knight offense and contributes to enemy defense.

Are Mecha shields breakable right now? The armor is to give constructs better defenses against their greatest weakness but can be wasted on a stray gremlin if players can manipulate its placement instead of spamming wildly. The dash for both tiers increases movement speed based on what it already has, not what our knights have. They move slower than we do normally. Mechas in T3 already create projectiles/bombs when they use their spinning charge attack.

I blanked on Retrode. That same habit of burning out early then picking up leftovers. Same reason I did gremlins first. I had a bunch of stuff for them stacked up with a little bow on top.

Scuttlebots already have liquid low health. If people can push the deactivated lumps around they would at least be able to escape a corner. I got nothing for where Demos and Scuttlebots appear together. No idea. Wonder why. I think I remember having Scorchers with Scuttlebots, but never Demo and Scuttlebot together. Looks like no shipping between those two.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 09:37
#298
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

I use my alt on my non-main computers because it's just too much work to log in and out of steam, and do that whole verification email thingy.

That hitting someone from across the level by chance thing was what I was worried about, even though I know it'll most likely never happen. But eventually it will, and someone will complain about how they were killed without having any control over it, and they'll have to change it. Better to just not put it in in the first place. I guess the defense is ok for this one. Maybe it could change to be a channel ability, so the casting Puppy gives its health over time. As for making players focus down turrets first, I think it’s a good idea but alternate defense is not the way to do it. It should be a priority anyway. And no one would expect to - or should have to - bring weapons that don’t do critical damage against whatever monster family they go up against. The only way this make sense is in the old arcade, before arsenal stations, where you had to bring normal weapons because you had no idea what you were going up against.

On second thought, spinning Lumbers isn't a good idea. It'd be too much like a bigger Mecha sword charge attack. Still don't like the squirrels, but w/e. meh. :/

I don't believe Mecha shields are breakable right now, based on general experience of watching stratum(not tier) 3 arena Mechs shrug off a 4* Avenger charge followed by a full combo to the face (For anyone who doesn't know, stratum 3 is the first half of Tier 2 <(^^)> ). I know what you were trying to do with the armor fragment, but it just doesn't make sense that an armor piece that is vulnerable to elemental should give elemental defense. The only family this would apply to is beast, because adding more fur/skin/padding will resist more pokey sticks. For construct, it makes more sense to give them more normal defense or flat out more health. Essentially the same effect, but it just makes sense.

I can’t come up for anything for the Retrodes either. I think they’re too similar to zombies, so we need something to make them different.

Did you watch that video? I was thinking of having them “turtle” when under fire, providing cover for Gremlins and other constructs to shoot over. Being able to push them around would defeat that purpose. Guess we better put some scuttlebots in Decon Zones.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 12:41
#299
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

I used to have the same problem with Steam. Have you tried just going to the main Steam site, logging in there, and having it remember you? When you go back to log into these foorims through Steam when it gets to the Steam login part it just says your Steam name with a login button. Except that would mean having some random compootur remember your Steam. Liquids. Do you do that already on your main compitterpatter?

If the infinite laser comes up as too much of a problem they can lower its range. If enemies start difficult and become easier players will think the need for difficulty constantly requested by the players was at first more than satisfied, meaning players feel like Three Rings has been listening to them. They can also cap its range before doing any of this if they want. What if the turret linking gives a reduced amount of defense, capping at like +40%/+4 bars, but heals around 1% health every couple seconds per linked turret? Specialized weapons usually deal around 40% more than neutral so element weapons would still be practical, but normal would be just as good with a maxed turret network.

It can be something different. Like a robot spider. Just something relatively small, normally lives in trees, and can jump on our heads and flop us around. It can even be a made up thing. A bird with four legs. An owl with chainsaw eyeballs. A bird with owls for eyes.

We can completely take out armor fragments for Mechas. I thought of it for Retrodes first but wanted to have the option. Its projectile absorbing shield is a huge advantage against gunners alone. Killing them with guns is still entirely possible, but for the average derp unless spamming Pulsar works it must be overpowered.

I had a few things in mind for zombies when I was thinking of Retrodes but I wanted to keep them distinctly separate.

I saw it, but getting cornered is a lot more likely when we get locked in a room with 3~7 Scuttlebots and our knights do not have the ability to transform into jets to fly away. Scuttlebots also move faster than those blue things, attack us, and have low health.

Mon, 12/24/2012 - 13:26
#300
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
YES!!!!

just finished reading Page #1.
i will conquer you Page #2!
brb in two weeks.

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