"Normal weapons do normal damage. If they got a significant damage boost, it wouldn't really be normal damage anymore"

When my special damage 4* weapon does more damage in a combo to a monster than my normal weapon does, we have an issue. Plus, the weapons that are "specialized" are supposed to have normalized damage to monsters who are neutral to their damage type- they're dealing more damage to neutral monsters than normal damage weapons are dealing to most monsters. That's a problem. Specialized weapons should work for specialized situations- not all the time/most of the time. Ex: Shadow vs Jelly compared to Norm vs Jelly sure have shadow be higher, shadow vs construct compared to norm vs construct they should have more or less even damage- now my silent n.blade does more damage (4*) than my WHB (5*) overall because it does more damage in shorter amount of attacks, and interrupts sooner allowing me to generally leave unscathed- WHB doesn't interrupt normally until last hit- if that- and monster usually attack by 4th attack of any weapon- almost definitely by 5th swing of cutters.

So. 4* specialized weapon is better to neutral monster than 5* normal weapon is vs same monster... normal damage weapons should be better in normal vs normal comparison. Specialized should be better in specialized situations, normal should be better in neutral situations.

"Dual Wielding? Not this again."

Ignorant post? Not this again.

TSUUUUU, be my friend!

1. Yes fix the hitboxes, but first and foremost on weapons that have the worst hitboxes (proven through testing).
7. There was no seven, I see what you did! Also, normal in very few cases is working well. I just think that in overall comparison to neutral damage of specialized weapons, normal should be stronger seeing as the whole idea is that normal is supposed to work pretty well for every situation- not be outdone by specialized weapons- because there are more specialized vs xMonsters+yNeutral Monsters than specialized vs zResistant Monsters.
4. Tsu, I main both cutter lines xD. Yes I've compared both a whole lot, alone in single party WHB interrupts like a boss. In my background section I specify that in higher party numbers, it becomes more difficult to interrupt with event the charge. Plus you know as well as others do that singling out an opponent long enough to finish the charge (I can get up to 3 jellies sometimes, so not good for danger rooms/wave rooms) isn't always possible, so being able to interrupt with the normal combo like other 3-hit swords do at 3rd/4th hit is need to finish the five hit combo sometimes.
3. Yeah, I have accepted that 0 f***s have been given and applied to the issue, I just want to know why- then we can argue why they should do something.
8. Yeah in my old thread (which you posted in, and I quoted you) I brought up those points. I'm just addressing a valid solution to dual wielding without the number crunching- like if an admin came in here and said "Hey they devs read this and think it's interesting" I'd flip out, and do something crazy I can't think of right now- I just wanna know they care about issues like this. I'm a suggestion vet myself, which is why I don't even comment on some stuff. I lurk the suggestions 5 times a week or more, I'm sick of seeing previously suggested solutions to this that are the first thing they thought of. The "let's get rid of shield for dual wield" is the very first thing everyone thinks of, like let's hear the next idea you have or something. I went in depth on how to solve that issue. As for responses- yes, I had in my last thread a lot of people say +1 but not really elaborate on what they agreed with.
5. Yes it's smaller, and I noticed. For a sword its size the swing makes sense, for the TYPE of sword it is, it does not. I'm 100% sure the devs for the game know what rapiers are for, and probably thought that it made the sword more viable because a wide swing helps SO much in a monster-rich situation (GET THE F*** OUT MY WAY MUNSTERS while in a corner he yelled). I could make an entire thread on the way they need to fix this, probably wouldn't get attention.
2. Yeah, follow through on good ideas OOO we love them!

Cerrin
Or what if it was a diagonal overhead swing, that way it was still slightly horizontal, and not totally a straight hit (since vertical doesn't matter on this game- I forgot). Glad you agree though.

No, I completely agree. Those weapon statuses need major buffs- maybe buff statuses and nerf a tiny bit on piercing. We need more stunning weapons- that's why WHB fits! Plus, stun is apparently anti-beast (those bells!).

Spur discussion, I like. I feel that the speed of Winmillion right now is on the spot though. When you say phasing the charge through blocks, what do you mean?

I personally suck with WHB in LD. If I hit someone it's cool, but they can instantly hit me for far more damage with GF. Also, faster wolver bites that are out a bit further would work better for my playstyle. I find that they just need to hit faster, and more accurately. Boost in LD allows for dodging the ghost as is, any slower and even a guardian could.

I'm confused if your Troika suggestions are suggestion additions to mine, or to current game.

Nope, no crossed lines for me.

"The reason I'm against your dual wielding is because you're making bombers once again lose out in Lockdown, and also that if you spam 4* blast bomb nothing can ever touch you."

Sandwich, I'm not a bomber, but would like to think of a more acceptable use for the bombers. How does it make them lose out in LD? They still have bombs and 2 that plant fast with a smaller radius, wouldn't that mean more spam if they have ctr reduction to plant 4 bombs instead of 2? Thought that would be awesome :(. As for the Blast bomb, the idea is that the 4* and 5* versions are supposed to be smaller than the regular 4*/5* versions. Like for the 4* it would the 2* radius, and 3* radius for the 5* versions. This being for each bomb that you could plant individually. The idea for the bombs when I made it didn't include the blast bombs, but more so the elemental ones, but how could we properly accommodate bombers?

Cerrin
Is it possible in this game to have it be 2 squares, but fill up one full square in front, and 2 halves on left and right? I think that would work too, but a basic one hit front does sound good to me, as long as the other mechanics for the 2nd and 3rd swing are lunge style/step forward 1 block attacks. For example:
1 block hit Attaque au Fer/a beat
a lunge attack put together with the player lunging forward (2 block) Balestra
a leap forward with a thrust dunno what it's called.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_fencing

Well I wasn't saying a significant amount, but I do see what you mean. I guess my worry is that we get something that's super strong and has status, because honestly doesn't the FF have ridiculous damage output? Like full bars? If anything I think the FF needs to be a bit nerfed, along with the flourish lines in general- damage wise that is. Not including statuses, I think that the FF is fine having more base damage than the others, but over have the flourish lines do a slightly smaller amount of damage so they're not so far away from a majority of other lines. Maybe it's just me that feels the difference is so high.

Giving a weapon status bonus doesn't need to make sense more than color scheme and mechanics purposes really- but if you insist... according the Gloaming Wild Woods levels (Snarby), stun is beasts weakness, because of this and the fact that the description for the WHB is revolving around being an anti-beast weapon (the natural VH vs Beasts) stun seems appropriate. Another thing to consider is that when someone is stunned from something it's either surprise, or pain. You could say that the jagged edges leave a tearing enemy stunned after attacks.

Ah, but wouldn't that mean you could hit monsters behind cover?

Yeah, I mean I've seen/made better suggestions for the two of the cutter lines. For example, some have suggested (me too) a poison cloud after the DVS instead of a second swing and making the damage better overall for the main swing- but only doing so at certain swings, like the 2nd and 4th, or 3rd alone. OR to fix the hit box issue, and go with what alpha wolvers can do, why not have a target be "marked" after the main swing of a WHB and have the glowing wolver be guaranteed a hit by homing in on the enemy- makes sense seeing as the main swing has decreased damage. Albeit, if we go with the striking out further, I like that because it changes from a 1.5 block attack to 2 block attack like most swords. I guess it's difficult, and leaves the question of should we allow players to dictate whether or not something gets hit with the wolver, and give them them the ability to attack further, or make the wolver get the strike in without issues (by homing- obviously not long range because it's immediately after your main swing). Alternatively, when the wolver comes in for a bite it could deal damage from where the ghost starts, so that anything it passes through takes damage (because if you notice the wolvers start further away from the center of the swing, and bite inward).

For your troika suggestions, I'm wondering if that's a subject for a seperate thread, but I do think we need balance in game. I feel that the idea is that the Troikas are suppose to be the heaviest, and biggest damage dealing weapons- so they're slower. I do agree that the sealed sword lines need to be slower though. Only slightly. These weapons are normal damage though, so in that sense they're relative. Do you feel that the speed change would really make Troika line weapons more viable? I feel they work fairly well in game at the moment, but the overall damages of normal weapons compared to specialized needs to be slightly reworked.

Fangel
Even if the charge is fine in T3, the reason there's a need for shield like Nick said IS because there are too many monsters to just keep attacking. For the same reason, the charge in T3 is less viable, and requires the player to use the normal combo more often (you still get chances in T3 to use the charge, just not as much). Plus I've been in 4-man parties, elite, in KoA runs where slags take a charge to the face, and still attack me through it. This is an example of why it needs a damage buff, or an interrupt buff on both charge and combo- but mainly combo. Since T3 demands use of the regular combo on almost all swords, the WHB and DVS need boosts to be of more proper use- and by no means am I saying make them the best in the game for everything- but when I can't do more than 3 swings on a 5* sword that isn't dealing much damage per swing (since it's divided by 5 swings/ghosts)- I need a little more interrupt so that I'm dealing more comparable damage to other 5* swords in the same situation. Especially when swords going against resistant enemies cause interrupt on their third swing and even my WHB which is neutral damage to the same monster doesn't interrupt on even the fourth swing- that's ridiculous since it gives the resisted sword a chance to do at least 2 more hits maybe a third to deal out more damage faster than the neutral sword (AGAIN, AGAINST A RESISTANT MONSTER).

How does it favor gunners? I actually intended for it to favor swordies and bombers. I thought it was just aesthetically nice for gunners. The idea I thought out most in terms of use, and balance was the swords.

Okay, I was using the antigua as an example because it already has 6 shots, so it's not all that much more work for devs to make an addition to an existing gun. What would you suggest as a new line? I still stand by the fact that it has to start at 4* since that's when people really become aware of status resistances, and weaknesses.

Sandwich
I did because I feel that with CTR you'd be planting 4 bombs in a square of different statuses. The idea is to allow mobility while still planting the bombs. You know- since you'd plant one and still have the other one available temporarily (the length of a sword combo swing maybe a bit longer) to put down.

Okay, well like I said. Probably the best bet in that situation would be to give the 4* version of dual wielded nitronome a 3* radius, and not expand the radius in 5*, but just give more damage/knockback? What would you suggest as a solution?

I still don't see how this favors gunners.

Fangel
Yeah... I do that.

Alpha Delta Kappa?

It's not fast enough to get out safely in mob situations. Well most of the time. I'm generally getting at the fact that the charge doesn't make up for the lack of being able to use the normal attack, and that the normal attack needs to be better. The charge does need fixing, but not as bad as the normal attack. I never said it's not useful, I know how to use the WHB charge well, and am fairly successful. There are times though where it's just not an option. Given those same situations to other weapons, it doesn't matter because their normal attacks are safe, and deal loads of damage. Without the interrupt in mob situations, the normal cutter chain/combo isn't safe- leaving the user to think well... lemme use the charge- oh wait that's not safe either. If a majority of specialized weapons are going to deal more damage (even to weaker/neutral monsters), are also safer, then what's the point of the cutter besides enjoyable playstyle? If they're gonna put effort into making a weapon different than most swords, I'd like it (along with others) to be a worthwhile investment beyond appearance.

I was thinking that more than the last though, because the time it takes to complete (depending on the monster) can give enough time for them to attack by the 4th swing.

Damage bonuses make this weapon viable in a ton more situations- which is what I do. I recently switched shields and the lack of damage bonus turned the sword to crap, which is what really set me off to repost a thread on this topic. Without the damage buffs from gear/trinkets, this sword doesn't interrupt as much on charge. I don't remember exactly how much but it was extremely low (of the 5/6 swings). Overall the damage bonuses are crutches that let this weapon work right now. The same bonuses are AMAZING on I think all other swords- that function fairly well without it I'd say. We shouldn't have to rely on the bonuses to have an okay sword.

Well the idea with guns was going to be this: You gain extra damage across multiple monsters (because 2 different damages), you lose extra damage to those resistant by at least half of your full damage (because your player shoots bullets from each in the combo, and you can't just shoot one of the guns), then make their neutral damage be slightly less, but equal to specialized weapons (but overall make the neutral damage of any non-pure normal damage lower than damage of normal weapons). The last hit the dual guns would have would do dual damage, and although would be pretty good against monsters neutral to both damage types, would be slightly negated to a monster who was weak to one, and resistant to the other- and not OP against a monster was weak to one, and neutral to the other. There's not really a penalty besides the fact that it's a longer combo, and so it takes longer to dish out the damage (like the cutter lines- it's a more natural penalty). Overall, wouldn't it be balanced since you can't really do heavy amounts of damage to all monster types, but just have medium specialty to a broader category? As of now, that's the "negative/penalty" to specialized damage weapons. You don't do as much damage to resistant monsters, you do good damage vs neutral, and you do great damage vs weakened monsters. Here's it the same, but mix damage, not as high output to one monster type (best case scenario is a monster who is weak to one of the guns and neutral to the other). My dual wielding suggestions give players a few things (guns, bombs, and swords included):
a) Dual Wielding
b) A weapon that is useful across a varied field of monsters
c) A cheaper option than making 2 weapons of different specializations that is slightly weaker toward specialized damage (because you'll deal less of it), but overall okay choice for majority of situations
How is the parry blade a shield in my suggestion? It's attacking... not parrying.

Gunners who dual wield the weapon in my suggestion don't shoot faster necessarily- maybe a little, but I didn't suggest a speed change. Clips are smaller per gun, but the overall weapons have the same amount of shots (minus the antigua being a 5th shot that shoots both guns for 2 bullets... so still 6 shots). Double reload sounds good to me. Just has the person reloading each alone I guess, but this isn't needed according to my suggestion since it's still got the negatives that I mentioned earlier (doesn't get bonus damage toward every monster, and there are resistant monsters to 1 of the 2 guns).

@Autofire

"in a circle"

Not totally true, I reread and would like you to give examples if that's okay. I do suggest that they will overall move in 360 degrees, but never at once will be doing damage in 360 degrees- there are 180 degree turns x2 for one set of swords, and for the dual blitz it's more like a wave (similar to the current shooting pattern, not the current charge).

"I think that dual wielding should be on a very limited per-weapon basis. For example, no dual pulsars."

Agreed, I only added the other weapons for those who would inevitably suggest a certain weapon. I only think the *** marked suggestions should be implemented.

"Including no shield would massively hurt many players."

Devs said that you need shields for endgame, so this is not an option. Yes shield boost goes away.

@Dandi

We can't get rid of shields. Devs said so.
As for stick to one weapon, I generally did that, just mixed statuses/damage types.

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK OF MOVEMENT SPEED DECREASES ON DUAL WIELDS?
This way there would be a negative side to using them, and it would only happen on the heavier dual wields?

Fangel

"Splitting guns into two damage types: don't do it."

Well having a pure damage weapon in guns, or in swords would just be a cosmetic change. Then the only viable suggestion I'd have proposed would be a pure normal type that is in a dual wield appearance, and although I do think that's an amazing idea for the cutter lines, I don't think it applies to all weapons/lines. Plus, I don't recall saying that there would be another normal+non-normal damage mixes. Only non-normal with non-normal, and normal alone.

"I simply think ASD: low would work universally across swords and guns."

Could you explain your mentioning, and your position? You continued on to say that the MSD wouldn't be such a minor worsening and could be negated through gear choice (as Sandwich did). I respond with the same answer, this is not ideal, and the average player can't afford all that gear- so I don't think. What would you recommend instead, more MSD? I honestly don't see these being weapons that people sacrifice certain defenses for, and generally OP gear like BKC and Chaos sets are worthy choices for any weapons- so I'd guess players wanting to get these would want them regardless of these weapons, and generally make any weapon choice almost amazing (besides select few under powered weapons).

"How we drop the second bomb, or if we toss bombs left and right simultaneously."

From my first post: "You select which to start combos with by charge+scroll-wheeling or charge+spacebar- because right now that doesn't do anything in-game (will remember last selected)- but charge combos are set to the way I describe."

Sandwich

"One blast bomb will knock the monster out of the other's small range."

Only certain bombs really move enemies away. Aside from that, the idea is that you can plant the 2nd bomb a bit later as you would a delay of the next swing/shot in combos (probably a slightly longer time period).

Digress is a cool word.

"No need for an additional penalty..."

After the new update, I feel it will be viable. Have you read up on the update/been on the test server?

I don't recall (even after rereading) saying there would ASI on Magnus.

"Angle of deviation,"

I don't quite know what that is. Do explain.

"Carry you a tile farther"

I would say yes, but in certain circumstances, this can ruin a sword's combo- in specific I know it can do so to the cutter line causing ghosts to miss. Though, I guess in the case of my dual suggestion it wouldn't matter since ghosts are replaced with a physical swing.

Antiguas: longer range and no MSD
Alchs richochets wouldn't do more damage then damage bar allowed (so just have overall damage output be reasonable).
*shrug* both weapons have a time and place.

Explanation on suggested cutter buffs.